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Unmasking Ourselves (Part 2): Being Human is the Assignment
S2:E6

Unmasking Ourselves (Part 2): Being Human is the Assignment

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Christian:

Welcome to the Uproot Project podcast, where we dig deep to uncover and dismantle toxic beliefs about God, ourselves, and each other. Our goal is to replant new insights in the fertile

Whitney:

Hello, and welcome back to the Uproot Project podcast. I am Whitney pronouns she, her, and why not?

Christian:

I am Chrisher. She, her.

Christopher:

I am Chris, he, him.

Whitney:

Awesome. And so this is part two of last week's conversation about vulnerability. And so just to have a moment before we jump in, we're just gonna take a deep breath. Let let the mindfulness moment from the last episode carry you. We're just gonna do like two quick breaths here.

Whitney:

Okay? So everybody, get settled in your seats and in your body. You ain't gotta close your ass for this if don't want to, but if you are in a space where you feel like you need to, we support you. Close those eyes. Everybody, we're gonna do a deep inhale and then we're gonna hold at the top and then we're gonna let that thing out slow.

Whitney:

Okay. Everybody together, let's inhale. Hold it. Release it slow through the mouth. That was a good sigh.

Whitney:

Let's do one more and let it out with a sigh like that. Inhale.

Christian:

Hold,

Whitney:

out with a sigh. Or a mumble. Alright, y'all. So we are gonna hop in and we're gonna hop in with a quick recap of what we talked about last episode. So it's gonna be real quick.

Whitney:

What you what you also should know is that it's been a couple weeks for us too. So we recap it for y'all just as much as we are recapping for ourselves. Mhmm. But also we can What you say now? Right.

Whitney:

We've been in this room and we've actually been having tough conversations in the room because that's what happens when you are in close partnership with people that you trust to be safe and vulnerable. So if you notice you're like, oh,

Christian:

the energy feels a little

Whitney:

different from one episode to another. It's been two weeks. Yeah? Okay? Mhmm.

Whitney:

Life and life.

Christian:

Yes. And we was we was discussing discussing life or discussing, whichever

Whitney:

you prefer.

Christian:

That's a fun word. Yep.

Christopher:

Disgusting life.

Christian:

You know. There was a g

Christopher:

Oh, I'm sorry.

Whitney:

That I didn't put in there, but I'm not mad at it. I accept your g. So, yeah, if you just noticed that the energy feels a little bit different, it might be and I don't know, roll with it. And if it causes resistance in your spirit, roll with the resistance. That's what we're gonna do.

Whitney:

My brain absolutely went. When to hold

Christian:

them. When to

Whitney:

fold them. No when to walk away. No when to run.

Christian:

Well, mean, they they have similar energy but definitely different songs.

Whitney:

What is Rolling With Me, Hemi?

Christian:

Oh, that's from Sister Act. That's why I know that song.

Whitney:

The deal is why would I not count my money while I'm sitting at the table? That makes sense. Like, let's count our money before we walk away.

Christian:

Yeah. It's like you don't want people to know how much you have.

Whitney:

I mean, I guess or like you're not trying to insult the person that gave it to Probably. Because you're playing you're the gambling man. So like

Christopher:

This is a poker thing.

Whitney:

I don't play poker. I'm listen.

Christian:

I don't have a poker face.

Whitney:

I I can because I'm a trained actress. But I what I don't have is a propensity to gamble. Gambling No. Pokes my heart. Didn't we go to Harrah's in New Orleans, like, years ago?

Christian:

Wasn't that you? We walked in and walked out.

Whitney:

No. We ate a buffet.

Christian:

Did we? I

Whitney:

Yes. There was a buffet

Christian:

I mean, the I mean, the

Whitney:

actual Oh, no. Actual casino. Listen, I remember I had a $5 limit because, again

Christian:

I don't know if I did anything. Don't know that you did either.

Whitney:

I don't think I was like Did say did No. I was like, I'm gonna do this. I had a $5 limit. I think I walked out at $3.50. I was like, I don't it just doesn't feel

Christian:

Does he know it feels depressing to me? We we I played a little bit when we went to Vegas on on a on a on machine. I mean, like, it was we were leaving the the hotel because every hotel has a casino. Absolutely. We were leaving the hotel and it's like, well, you know, let's we're here.

Christian:

Do the thing. Mhmm. And so I think I play I don't I don't know if it was $5. I don't think it was full. 5 full dollars.

Whitney:

Okay. So let's recap our our last or the first part of our conversation. So one of the things think one of the top things or first things that we talked about was how, like, masking is really exhausting. And so we talked a little bit about, like, how that's true socially, yes, and in your family, but, like, how especially it can be true in professional settings. Right?

Christopher:

Yes.

Whitney:

And depending on how, like, what your identities are, the intersectionality that causes the feeling of needing to mask. Mhmm. That, like, that is already its own exhaustion. Right? Exactly.

Christian:

Right.

Whitney:

And then so by the time you get to getting through your day, you don't have a whole lot left because All

Christian:

out of spoons.

Whitney:

You're all out of freaking spoons. Mhmm. Soup spoons. Teaspoon. Ladles.

Whitney:

Tables. Ladles. Scoops.

Christopher:

No spoons. Empty.

Christian:

Just empty. Just gone.

Whitney:

Empty. Okay. And then we also talked about like what are And I oop. And I We talked about what are the consequences of prolonged masking. So

Christopher:

Mhmm. Yeah.

Whitney:

How constantly being in the state of not functioning from a place of authenticity Yep. Yep. Is it can cause depression and anxiety and what we have come to know as impostor syndrome, which is I don't know if

Christian:

it'll be more complicated.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because sometimes it's just internalized other shit.

Christian:

Yeah. It is.

Whitney:

Internalized white supremacy. Internalized patriarchy. Patriarchy. Internalized other systems from which we're existing that we're

Christian:

just a realization that everything sucks.

Whitney:

Right. But like we've learned to see ourselves through these lenses that are not native to us. Yeah. Right? So we're seeing ourselves as how our ops see us, if you will.

Whitney:

Okay. And then it's like we're not measuring up. But that's the wrong lens. That's the wrong lens. That's an external lens, not an internal.

Christopher:

You need new glasses, bitch.

Whitney:

Period. Period. And but the thing about it is is constantly masking. One of the things we talked about does not only have psychological Right. Impacts, but it also has physical.

Whitney:

So I know Christian and I both shared some personal stories about what masking feels like and looks like and even talking about like the physical, like, and I told a story and how I burnt out at, 20 how old was that? 26, I'm sure. How are you?

Christian:

That's alright. I'm guessing. I just do I

Whitney:

I'm trying I was like, was I married yet?

Christian:

Oh, I was married yet. First time. Yeah.

Whitney:

The first time, I was, 24.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. I think I was 24. Right before five, which is a really early age to burn out. But then also it's happened recently, right, where I didn't necessarily feel like burnt out but my body was like, bitch, we're done. We will kill you.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Tried. We will actually kill you. Tried.

Christian:

Attempt attempted murder. Attempted murder

Whitney:

because my body was like, yo, this type of stress you're experiencing, this is not sustainable.

Christopher:

Should've done.

Whitney:

Return to homeostasis?

Christian:

Should've done.

Whitney:

We will return you to Jesus.

Christian:

I mean, that's the that's the world we it felt like

Christopher:

we was

Christian:

on that road.

Whitney:

Yep. Yeah. And so, like, that also can leave you feeling disconnected from people. Like, when you feel like you can't actually show up as yourself and be vulnerable as your real self. So it can leave you disconnected from the people in your social social circles, but also the people in your family, those who are closest to you.

Christian:

Yeah. And then the other thing we talked about was the way that like cultural conditioning, which she kinda mentioned in like all the different identities that we have, and also just generally childhood and the way that we're socialized to behave and how we are socialized to not talk back or not show any negative emotions, not be a burden, not rock the boat. Right? And that is like a different that's a type of masking that is outside just being black or just being queer or just being a woman. Right?

Christian:

It it has all of that, none of that. It's got the religious aspects of it that sometimes well, at least it did for me, this is what we discussed. Mhmm. It has all of those that cause you to retreat into yourself in a way that is just doesn't allow you to be who you actually are or to even know who that is. Mhmm.

Christian:

And then the last thing we talked about was just the fact that once that there is life outside of masking. Yes. That there is a there is an option to live more authentically or as authentically as you possibly can in safety because we know what kind of world we live in.

Christopher:

More authentically Live in a society.

Christian:

More authentically as yourself and what what that can feel like, what that opportunity is, what that if you keep pushing through the discomfort of taking off the masks, there is light at the end of the trunnel that is not a train.

Whitney:

Come on, Toronto. Not a train.

Christopher:

Right. You heard me.

Whitney:

Loved it.

Christian:

I made it worse. New word, bitch. Trunnels.

Whitney:

Ain't that to your lexicon.

Christopher:

There you go.

Whitney:

Smoke it.

Christian:

The tunnel is a thing. I was close. I just needed an r.

Whitney:

Well, tunnel is.

Christian:

Yes. I just added r. It's fine.

Whitney:

But you said trunnel.

Christian:

I did.

Whitney:

You added a t. And then you turn

Christian:

I just added a r.

Whitney:

I like it either way. I just Yeah. I don't really give a fuck. It's audio. We're not selling any

Christian:

of this.

Whitney:

We gonna let the transcription service figure that part out.

Christopher:

It's some capsaicin on in it. It's fancy. I love

Whitney:

I enjoy it. No ranch dressing?

Christopher:

No ranch dressing.

Christian:

That is so funny.

Christopher:

Ranch dressing.

Christian:

Every time I listen to that clip, I crack.

Whitney:

I got a text about that specifically. I forgot to share it with you. Yes. My business partner texted me and was like, y'all are killing on season two. She was like, and that rant, Allen

Christian:

That is whole segment took me out. Funniest thing.

Whitney:

And I was like, that's because you two are a church kid.

Christopher:

That's right.

Christian:

That was so funny to me. Was A ranching. I was crying at my desk listening to

Whitney:

I need to go back and listen to that episode.

Christian:

That Man, please.

Whitney:

You know what, I haven't listened to yet. Really?

Christian:

Listened the

Whitney:

rest of them. I haven't listened to that one. Okay. Yeah.

Christian:

Yeah. Y'all haven't gotten training. Y'all gotta go back.

Whitney:

If you

Christian:

if this is the first or second episode to be listening to, you need to listen to the rest of the season. Okay?

Christopher:

This is

Christian:

actually

Christopher:

This season is fire.

Whitney:

It's fire.

Christian:

It's fire. This season was good. But this one

Christopher:

I don't know.

Whitney:

What you have to know is this is coming from three people who are very self critical.

Christopher:

Finally. Yes.

Whitney:

So we telling y'all this fire. Not just bullshit.

Christian:

It's the hot So hopefully we can keep it up. Yeah. Mhmm. Hopefully, you walk away from this episode feeling like, oh, keep it up. Keep it up.

Christian:

Yes. I hope it feels a

Christopher:

warm hug to you.

Whitney:

Warm hug. Now that we are here back in this episode, part two of our episode, Let's let's talk a little bit more about social media and comparison culture and how that discourages us from being vulnerable. And authentic. Yeah.

Christian:

So I read you already know what's happening. I read a book and it was basically about know the book? No. I read a book and it was about like mommy blog mommy bloggers.

Whitney:

Oh, yeah yeah yeah. Gotcha.

Christian:

And the now it this is a this is like a thriller mystery kind of thing. So so people do die. But the Yes. The overarching theme of the book is if you don't have kids, you probably are aware of the fact that moms have got a high ass bar. Okay?

Christian:

Yeah. Mhmm. They've had a high ass bar for forever, but twenty twenty five and especially like the the early two thousands and the mid two thousands.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

There's all the mommy bloggers and the people who are putting their content out there talking about, you know, this is what I do for my kid. This is what I do for my kid. I make their lunch every day. I cut their lunch into shapes. You know, we do crafts.

Christian:

We don't watch TV. We we're

Christopher:

Bento boxes.

Christian:

Bento boxes. Right? We're going on a we're going on a nature hike. We're doing this. We're going to Disneyland.

Christian:

We are me and my kids travel the whole world in Winnebago. Right? Like you see all of this content and constantly you're looking at it going, I need to be. Mhmm. I should be.

Christian:

My kids don't get as much. My kids don't get enough. What if my kids don't blah blah. And like, it was this book was specifically about the mommy speak the mommy sphere area of the Internet, but I feel like that's true for everything. Like, it is so it's normal for people who are producing content

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

To produce content that highlights the best part of their lives. And one of the biggest parts of this book is the fact that their lives don't actually look like this. Yeah. Like, one of the girl one of the girls, her daughter has diabetes and so she's always making these, you know, the glycemic index friendly foods. Her daughter hates them all.

Christian:

Everything she makes her daughter hates. She has to overcook everything to make it look good for the internet and so they end up throwing all of the food that she makes away and then eating pizza and chicken nuggets and shit. Because this stuff is

Whitney:

fake. Right?

Christian:

This stuff is fake and I think it's easy for us to forget that. Mhmm. That the people that we're looking at online and even the stuff we put online is heavily curated. And if you saw any one person in their actual full real life, you will be like, oh, you just a nigga.

Whitney:

You're right. And I think

Christopher:

that's That's a nigga. There

Whitney:

is a spiritualist that I have been following for many years and she has recently undergone she's going through a divorce with her husband but like her husband has manipulated her and the business and staged a coup and robbed her house and like, they were separated. Robbed the house, did root work on the house, like all of these things. Right? So all these things that she's been kind of keeping to herself

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Have come out and come to light and she's she's really and I applaud her so deeply because she's really done mask off. Yeah. Just been like, I'm telling the full story. Like, I am telling all the parts that I missed. Yeah.

Whitney:

Parts I did not

Christian:

miss but I did not

Whitney:

talk about. Like, all in how I got into this situation. You know? But she's given the details because she's just like, at this point, I don't want him to do this to anybody else. So here are all the things and the reaction that she has gotten is largely supportive.

Christian:

Like, for

Whitney:

the most part, she has built a community of people who are empathetic and just really see her. Right? Yeah. But then there are the comments that are like, but you spiritual. Why did your gods let this happen?

Whitney:

And that, like, all of these, like, why isn't your life perfect? And she was just like, yeah, everybody's spiritual because we all got a spirit. I am also human. Right. And so like Right.

Whitney:

This this moment, I actually needed this for growth. Like, the development of my soul needed this because I was devaluing myself enough to like even be with this man to begin with. Like, game didn't recognize the game, you know? Yeah. And so I'm just like, yeah.

Whitney:

Why did y'all expect too not to be human?

Christian:

Like, we We do this a lot.

Christopher:

Mhmm. All We do.

Christian:

And I mean, one of one of the most obvious spaces, at least as deconstruction Christians, was definitely pastors. Mhmm. And the tendency to idolize them, put them on a pedestal

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christian:

Presume that they could do no wrong and that any quote unquote wrong you thought they did, it wasn't really wrong. Right? Like all the hoops that we kind of the mental gymnastics that we go through Uh-huh.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

Making it so that they can continue to be, you know, superhuman or nonhuman. Easy. Whatever you wanna call it, so that we can keep them on their pedestals. And like that that's not healthy for us because we're minimizing ourselves. Yes.

Christian:

And that's not healthy for them because them niggas is human. They are human. Exactly.

Whitney:

Which they even forget.

Christopher:

They Right.

Whitney:

Girl, they forget. Sometimes you can the biggest ego you will find, the most hubris you will find is in a pulpit. Well

Christopher:

Yeah. With short ass members.

Whitney:

Well, then there's that.

Christian:

Or revisionist ones.

Christopher:

Right. So with as if you touched on something that I was going to post in an article, also, news flash, by the time this come out, I may have a self stack. So

Christian:

Period. Subscribe. Subscribe. Only vaguely know what that is, but I'm excited because I know you wanted to do it. Yay.

Whitney:

Clap in the mic.

Christopher:

There you go. Awesome.

Christian:

Happy knees. Happy knees. Happy knees. I'm so excited.

Whitney:

I'm glad you moved forward on

Christopher:

that. Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

The person who reads Sub stax. I'm glad this

Christopher:

is happening. Yeah.

Christian:

Yay. One of us knows what this means.

Christopher:

Facebook is shit. So yeah.

Christian:

Yeah. Well, that's not untrue. But

Christopher:

yeah. So one of the things I was gonna talk about in the article is that one of the things that we do is that we love the idea of God, but we hate the reality of God. And one of the things that we know that to be true is that we often when God deals with us and we talk about, like, the idea of the incarnation that God is wrapped in human flesh when it comes to Jesus. And it's a very noble concept, very poignant and salient narrative that we could use to better understand ourselves and the and the and the complexity of of our divinity and humanity existing in the same space.

Whitney:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Christopher:

If we if we used it for that, that would be great.

Christian:

But But

Christopher:

throughout history, we've used the incarnation of God coming down as Jesus. We've leaned into the divinity and so made God other. Yep. And when we make God other, we open ourselves up well, when we make God other, we make him into an abstract idea and and and ideas we can control and use to our agendas and our advantages.

Christian:

Mhmm. But

Christopher:

when we have to deal with God as a tangible reality that holds us accountable to live like he lived

Christian:

Yeah. That's human.

Christopher:

That's very human, and that's there's a responsibility attached to it that we can't necessarily control. Yeah. Because you couldn't control Jesus. Jesus couldn't control. That's why they killed him.

Christian:

Well You know. Well.

Christopher:

I'm just saying. If you read the text

Whitney:

I mean, that's what happened.

Christopher:

That's what happened. He pissed them niggas off. He pissed the state off. Yep. And they killed them.

Christopher:

Deal with that as you may.

Whitney:

But Let that be a warning.

Christopher:

Let it be a warning. So, you know, when you're dealing with a god that can't be controlled or dares to show up outside of your vision for what you think the world should look like, we end up very much hating god when he shows up. When we when he shows up. Because if we're too invested in the narrative

Whitney:

Take time. Take your time.

Christopher:

If we're too invested in our narratives

Christian:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

And we and God shows up outside of our narratives, we end up crucifying him.

Christian:

I need something to throw. Girl, let me dig in my purse. Hold on. Because I can't reach that pillow. So I just put that pillow down.

Christian:

Yes, nigga. I don't wanna hit the mic.

Whitney:

No. Look. Proverbial throwing.

Christian:

Look. I mean, Whitney said this was it last season or this season? Don't remember. But like, the way we treat the way we we've constructed religiosity, especially in the West, you don't really need God.

Christopher:

You don't? No, you don't.

Christian:

You don't really need him. It's all a projection of what you think.

Christopher:

Right. All you need is your interpretation of the Bible.

Christian:

Yeah. Or whatever. Ain't. Or your ID. The Bible is the one that is currently running roughshod Yes.

Whitney:

In this country.

Christopher:

In this country.

Christian:

In the Merca.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

But other colonial lands. And And other colonized

Christian:

lands. Colonized. That's it. Yeah. But it's not the only one that they be acting like that.

Christopher:

No. It's clear.

Christian:

We know that. So But the one that's doing it right now where I live happens to be the butt.

Christopher:

Right. So yeah. So we we trump up and we I'm sorry. I didn't mean no punishment. We prop up our people and carve out empathy for people who performed our ideas of God the best.

Christopher:

Yeah. Yeah. Our favorite ideas of God. And we castigate those who don't live up to those norms, but God is in them.

Whitney:

Which and I say this all the time. I say this to my mom, and it really stresses her out. Hi, mom. I love you.

Christian:

Hey, miss.

Whitney:

I'm happy to be your longest running headache. But, like, so often what happens in religious practices is people make God in their image Absolutely. Instead of Mhmm. Recognizing that we are all made God's in God's image. And so Right.

Whitney:

That person might look different from you, but they are not lacking in the image of God. There you go. It's a different perspective of God. It's like viewing I I do a lot of art viewing because that excites me in my spirit. And one of the things that I like, I'm the person that walks like, I'll stand back and then I walk like I'm nose to nose but like reasonable and safe with the art because I wanna see the intricacies and then I'm back up again.

Whitney:

Right? Like that's me. But in a sculpture, you can walk by the sculpture and see the front. Yep. Right?

Whitney:

And be like, this is the sculpture. Matter of fact, I just ran through a picture. There was a picture that came from my memories when I went and saw the last Camille Wiley exhibit that was here.

Christian:

Okay.

Whitney:

He has larger than life sculptures. Right?

Christian:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

And they are so detailed and so intricate. And you could walk up on it and be like, oh, look at the anguish in that man's face. Look at the contortion of his body. He's in a sarcastic pose. Right?

Whitney:

Like, you can do all that shit. And then you walk around the back and you realize, oh, shit. He didn't forget the back.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Like, the back speaks just as loudly as the front. Yeah. Right? Even the feet. Because I have a particular sculpture.

Whitney:

I'm and I don't remember the name of it, but he like, it's a young black man laying down.

Christian:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

And so, like, front, back, yes. But, like, his hair, also. His bottom of his shoes, also, like Wow. No part left behind.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Right. Because it's He killed all around. You know? But that is also God. Right?

Whitney:

And so, like, spend so much time looking at the face of the sculpture of God that you forget that there are hands, there's a bag, there are feet, there are and this is all obviously metaphorical. Mhmm. Mhmm. Like and all of these things, like, these other parts are different perspectives. They might look completely different.

Christopher:

Right. But

Whitney:

they're But they look exactly how they're supposed to look because they are God. Yeah. And so yeah. Like, I think that's the risk we run when when we make God in our image is that exclusionary piece of saying, well, you don't look like me so you can't possibly look like God.

Christian:

And that's Right. One of the Exactly. As bad as comparison culture is for us as individuals thinking that we're less than Yeah. It's just as bad and I would argue maybe just as bad. I'm gonna stick with just as bad.

Christian:

That's right. It's just as bad because we exclude other people who don't conform to whatever social norm or, you know, cultural it thing happens to be on trend at the moment. Right? And so, like, when we talk about people who have different body types, who have Mhmm. Disabilities, who have different languages, different faith practices, different gender identities, like, whatever it is, if you don't look like the thing that I expect, then there is something wrong with you.

Christian:

Yeah. Like, you can't just be different. You have to be bad. Right?

Whitney:

Yeah. Okay. Or supernatural. Right. Yeah.

Whitney:

Or Like, one or two. Right? Yeah. Like, you can't just be regular, like, average. Either you're super you have a disability and you're so brave.

Christian:

Oh god. And you inspire me.

Whitney:

Right. You're now you're inspo porn. Because that's the only thing you do for her. Because you are.

Christian:

Like, you exist to make me feel not not better about my life, but like

Whitney:

Recurvaged to do better because you're doing so much with less. Right. Which is like, no. They're just doing with what they got. Like Just like we all are.

Christopher:

We were.

Christian:

So fucking just stop it. Don't treat people like Oh, yeah. But like you, right? It's either what do they call it? It's the it's the not the chosen one trope.

Christian:

It's the not like the others. There's a name for that. Where like you exceptionalism? Is that is

Whitney:

that the right phrase?

Christian:

Yes. Yeah. So either either, oh, yeah. We knew you were gonna do that. Oh, you're the exception to the rule.

Christian:

You're the good one. Right? So you end up separating people into a dichotomy like that because they don't that Yeah.

Whitney:

That too.

Christian:

Yeah. So you can't put them in a box to match what you think they should be doing. So if you can wrap your head around that thing being good, exceptionally, then they get to go on the exceptional podium. Yep. And if you can't, and it makes you uncomfortable or it just doesn't fit the norms you like, they become garbage.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christian:

And it's like, why do you need to compare anybody? Why do you can't just be living your damn life without your biz mind your business?

Whitney:

And more importantly, not only living your life,

Christian:

but allowing others to live theirs. And minding your business.

Christopher:

Right. And and I think

Christian:

that's the

Christopher:

thing is that that for the brain itself is is a it's a meaning making machine.

Whitney:

It is. Yeah. Absolutely.

Christopher:

And and so we're always constantly trying to make sense of the world around us. Yeah. Trying to put things in categories and things, you know, evolutionarily. Hopefully, I'm not punching above my weight talking about this stuff.

Christian:

We'll figure it out. But

Christopher:

but evolutionary is is vital for our survival. Yeah. To be able to make sense of the world around us because that's how we determine what's safe

Christian:

Yes.

Christopher:

Secure, and what and what and what is conducive to flourishing. Yep. We we need to make things but some but when we take ourselves out of that survival element and put ourselves in another type of society where survival is not as

Christian:

It's not

Christopher:

like M and A.

Whitney:

Tigers and bears. Yeah.

Christopher:

Right. It it it be it presents some problems.

Whitney:

Absolutely. Mhmm.

Christopher:

And when it comes to our favorite narratives and our favorite ideas. Mhmm. And it's just another stage in our evolution where we where we just we just gotta bear with it and push past it and try to understand that there are people that exist outside of our narratives.

Whitney:

And I I think that's it. Right? So, yes, we all make meaning, but I think understanding the mechanisms for how you personally make meaning is really useful because then you can challenge, okay. Yes. This is how I've made this mean.

Whitney:

Right?

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Is that the only way that that can be meaningful? Right? Like, does that actually mean that?

Christian:

Does it mean what I think it means?

Whitney:

Does it mean what I think it means? And I think as a person who does a lot of work to not project, I do my best to not project my lens onto other people, that actually requires me to be all of us, to be curious about like, no, What was the meaning in that for you?

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

Right? Instead of assigning the meaning

Christian:

Right.

Whitney:

Based on what I heard and based on my own lens and systems and narratives Right. Saying, no no, but what does that mean? But that also that is a type of vulnerability in that you may learn their meaning and it may challenge all of yours. Right.

Christopher:

Exactly.

Whitney:

It will. Yeah. Largely.

Christopher:

Is yeah. Is that is the that is transformative conversation. Absolutely. Where it's We let them be there. Goes both ways.

Christopher:

Yeah. And and so much of our thought, not just in religion, but just mainly in in any type of conversation. We go into conversation trying to dominate one another. Mhmm. We try to see each other's point of view without understanding that you are also on shaky ground and that your mind also can be changed and should be changed, especially if it's for the better.

Whitney:

Exactly.

Christopher:

But that's what it means to have good conversation because it's a back and forth.

Christian:

Absolutely. And I think that's that's the difficulty with social media Mhmm. Is that we frequently go in there trying to trying to if we go in to have conversations with people who don't agree with us Mhmm. The energy is frequently combative.

Whitney:

Right. Even if it's not, it's perceived as such because that's

Christian:

such a norm. It right. And there and there's no tone of type. Correct. Right?

Christian:

Correct. Or you walk into an echo chamber and everybody just keeps saying the same thing that you already think. Yeah. And so you're not able to actually move in any, like, meaningful direction. Yeah.

Christian:

Right. You're just having what you already think reinforced, but again, not in a way that's challenging anything you actually think. Yeah. And you're not actually able to engage with people who think something different to even see what. Because this is something that we know this about echo chambers especially in the age of social media where they feed you what you want even in Google searches

Whitney:

Mhmm.

Christian:

Based on your private your prior Google searches, they'll feed you the type of information that they think you want. Yeah. Yep. And so like, it's hard for me for you to know what it is that was said to somebody to make them think a thing. Mhmm.

Christian:

Right? And so you're like, how could you think that based on x y and z? And they're like, what are you talking about x y and z? I don't know anything about x y and z. I saw a b and c.

Christian:

You're like, what? Where is that? And like, you don't even see the same internet anymore. Exactly. Right?

Christian:

And so when we were talking about all of this, the best thing you can do is get off the fucking internet. Like just for a little bit, take some time, go into a or try to get into a different space and not try to change people's minds, but like talk to actual real life people. Talk to people.

Whitney:

Like to

Christian:

real life people Yeah. That you respect well enough to not just go keyboard warrior stupid on them and the same because frequently that energy just don't be there in person.

Whitney:

Just That's true but like I don't even know that you have to like trust people. Right? Like so and I know it's about vulnerability. It's like what do you mean you don't have to trust people? Truth yourself.

Whitney:

And so I I say this no. Truly. And I'm saying this because, like, so for instance, I now hobbly work at a bar. You do. Which means I'm gonna talk to different kinds

Christian:

of people. Lots of them.

Whitney:

I connecting with humans, which is also let me just preface my experience with social media say by saying I only post things that will disappear in twenty four hours

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Because I don't understand otherwise. Like, I for I think I said this to you, Chris, recently, is that, like, social media posting feels like broadcasting to me. Gotcha. Yeah. I'm like, I don't actually like, I would rather engage.

Whitney:

Yeah. Right? And so I I understand that it is broadcasting with the intent to engage. Right? And, like, if you've built an audience, this is a you could you could facsimile this in this space.

Whitney:

Yep. But that is not what feels most I'm an analog girl in a digital world. And so I I wanna have that face to face conversation. I also like as an intuitive, as a person that reads energy, I wanna feel you. Yeah.

Whitney:

Right? And I can't feel fucking comments. And so like, you know, and so being at a bar where there are a lot of people, some of whom are regulars and so they they actually feel comfortable in this space. Right? And so like I'm learning them, but like ended up having a conversation with a person who is one of our regulars and like it's funny because when he walked in, was like, oh, that's a Trump supporter in my head.

Whitney:

Yep. And I I think I'm right. I don't think I'm based on a conversation that happened because I think sometimes white people underestimate their own. Like, they can't look and go, that's a Trump supporter. They'll look and go, I like this person.

Whitney:

We're probably on the same page about everything. Right. No, bitch.

Christian:

We You're not. We don't have this luxury, but keep going.

Whitney:

Right. Right. And so the conversation is between two black people and two white people, three women, one male, white male. Right? And the two black women are like, we know how to navigate this in such a way that this does not get political.

Whitney:

Though it is very we are talking about a very political thing. Because everything's political. Hello. But, like, we know how to do it. Bless white woman's heart.

Whitney:

Oh. Truly genuine. She's she's a doll. But said something that was very true to her.

Christian:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

And I agree with. Mhmm. But she couldn't read the room. Yeah. Oh.

Whitney:

Right? And so which prompts white man

Christian:

to start with the tirade.

Christopher:

Man, just

Whitney:

a tirade. And I think that's the thing. You expect tirades from people. But, like, if you're actually just in conversation, you don't always get that. Good.

Christopher:

How are you doing?

Whitney:

Right? Like, just allow people to be, to exist in a space, and you will see how the interactions are different. Right. So, like, he didn't go on a tirade. He just happened to mention his opinion about something that forty seven had said.

Whitney:

And we all had three like, six eyeball bounce between three of us.

Christopher:

I

Whitney:

was just like, bitch, that's not okay. And so then my brain, my Libra peacemaking brain was like, I can bring this home. Let me just finish this. Here is my big point and we all agree. Right?

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And we can move on. Later that day, he and I actually had a really good conversation about therapy.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

And like what he is hoping to get out of it. And like how like the mindset of approaching it. He was still a person.

Christopher:

Yeah. Right.

Whitney:

And it's like while we disagree politically and I listen, what y'all have to know is I'm black, black, I'm blackity, black, I'm black. Right? And so like, I'm not I'm very much often one of those people who is like, yeah, if I'm black, I'm queer, I'm a woman, like, you know, I'm tall, I'm a big body bins, like all these intersections and I'm just it's I'm often like, okay, listen, if you don't actually care about my safety or protection, don't have shit to talk to to you about. That's very much my like, what what do you

Christian:

want? Right.

Whitney:

Why are you here? Right. You can't do that at work. And so I was really actually really grateful for that moment because it was like, no. As much as you try to maintain other people's humanity, people who you see on opposite side of the fence, you also need to maintain their humanity.

Whitney:

That's the

Christopher:

whole thing.

Whitney:

Yes. Hating them is not actual it's self perpetuating. Yeah.

Christian:

Hate

Whitney:

is self perpetuating as is love. And I'm like, humanity choosing to view someone's humanity is actually the loving thing to do. So now he and I, we've only seen each other twice, and we got great rapport.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Right? And it wasn't about I didn't here's what I didn't do. I didn't have to lie. I, at no point, shucked and jived. Yep.

Whitney:

Like, I used strategic conversation to get everybody back to safe ground.

Christian:

Yeah. Right?

Whitney:

But nothing was a lie. I didn't disagree with the shit I agreed with. Right? Yeah. But it's like, okay.

Whitney:

How can we find what what is the purpose of this? What is our commonality here? What's the what is the goal of this conversation?

Christopher:

Right. Where are we trying to go?

Whitney:

Where are we trying to go? You know, and once we find common ground, it's easier to find more.

Christian:

Yeah. Yes.

Whitney:

And you can't actually influence people if y'all don't think y'all on the same ground.

Christian:

Look. That's not real.

Christopher:

That's real.

Christian:

That's that

Christopher:

That's real.

Christian:

That. So yeah. Leave the house.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah. Leave the house.

Christian:

Meet some go work at a bar or come Meet some my bar. Not gonna

Whitney:

tell y'all what time

Christian:

it is because I really don't

Whitney:

want all the options.

Christian:

Some actual human people. Yeah. Exactly. And I mean, I this is something that I've kind of been tossing around and dealing with in different aspects. But it's so easy to just be in the house Amen.

Christian:

Or to just be in the same place as you always are.

Whitney:

Mhmm. Especially when you pay to be there.

Christian:

Well, I mean, there's that. You know?

Whitney:

Not invested in this roof.

Christian:

And sometimes it'd be costing a lot of money to be outside, not everything costs money to be outside. No. It doesn't. Right? Everything.

Christian:

And so what what find finding ways to not be in your most comfortable bubble all the time. Yeah. Finding finding ways to get outside and meet people who care about similar things that you care about, whether that's people who are unhoused, whether that's reading, whether that's Right. You know, gardening, what whatever like, the thing that you care about, like trying to find ways to connect with people who are not exact not like intentionally going, I'm going to find a person who is not like me, but I'm gonna go find other people interested in the thing I'm interested in outside of my house.

Whitney:

Recommend silent book clubs. Yep. There worldwide chapters and you don't have to read the same thing.

Christian:

There you go. That's

Christopher:

There you go. So there was something there was something I posted a while back about why people don't change their minds and why facts and logic.

Whitney:

Why people, not white people. Why?

Christian:

Got it. W h y.

Christopher:

Don't change their minds.

Whitney:

I was like, that guy.

Christopher:

I know. Right? Very radical now.

Christian:

You're right. Not radical. Stick with me. But the whites,

Christopher:

they just can't they rigid.

Whitney:

Ain't capable.

Christopher:

Ain't

Christian:

capable. Mean, I got a book for you if you wanna listen to her. No. But I you

Whitney:

know, but no. Why people?

Christopher:

Why do not change can't change their minds or why is it hard to

Christian:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

Would just give them their facts and logic. There is not enough. That this there's this effect called the backfire effect. Mhmm. It's done by a study by a couple of people.

Christopher:

Oh, I forgot the name. Oh, by Brendan Nyhan and Jason Rifler.

Whitney:

Sounds white.

Christopher:

Basically, when people encounter facts that challenge their deeply held beliefs, they don't just reject them. They often double down Mhmm. And they strengthen their original stance. We've seen that. Absolutely.

Christopher:

And you've seen that. It's as simple as dating. You tell you you know, you tell your your daughter, hey, that boy's no good for you. They're gonna double down.

Christian:

I hate I know. Literally did this with my mother. So yes.

Christopher:

So yeah. The backfire effect is and all of this is in this post by this guy by this handle called at Devin, the nature guy.

Christian:

Keep going.

Christopher:

So it's less about facts and more about how the brain processes threats to identity.

Christian:

Threats. Threats to your identity. Right.

Christopher:

Yeah. Hey. Keep going. This thing called our brain's reticular activating system.

Christian:

Too much. Keep going.

Christopher:

Acts like a filter. It decides what we notice and what gets ignored.

Christian:

Okay.

Christopher:

And when just like right now. When facts

Whitney:

I'm calling out.

Christian:

I was real time Christian's reticular activating system. Demonstration. You're welcome.

Christopher:

What's irrelevant?

Christian:

Demonstration for you.

Christopher:

I'm

Whitney:

listening. I'm locked in.

Christopher:

This is good. So when facts threaten our identity or our worldview, the amygdala, the brain's emotional alarm system, can perceive it as a threat in the same way that it does a physical one

Whitney:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

Triggering a fight or flight response. So like

Christian:

Oh, man.

Christopher:

Yep. Right. So all these things, you know, all these ideas that you held dear that your mom and dad gave to you, and then somebody comes to challenge you now, you have to rethink. So if this wrong, did I my mama's wrong? Is she is she full of shit?

Christopher:

And now all of these things are are challenging your personhood.

Whitney:

Yeah. I think that

Christopher:

make you you. Yeah. And so, yeah, like, you get real defensive because you're not just defending your idea. You're defending the source of those ideas.

Whitney:

You're defending yourself. You're like, but not your oh, I'm defending myself. Your identity. Who you conceive yourself as.

Christopher:

Right. Right. Yeah. Exactly. And so yeah.

Christopher:

So basically, reason takes a backseat in that sense. And the brain prioritizes

Christian:

Let's see.

Christopher:

Defending its sense of

Whitney:

self. Mhmm.

Christopher:

And so, course, so arguing stats or data at this point, it just makes things worse.

Whitney:

Pointless. It's futile.

Christopher:

And stats and data can be twisted to contort any kind of to support any kind of narrative.

Christian:

Yeah. I really

Christopher:

So you can't just give out stats and data because they can look at the same shit and come up with a different conclusion.

Christian:

Hello, Michael.

Christopher:

That is very incompetent view.

Christian:

But Right. It's Which is idea.

Whitney:

As a person that loves research and had to do a lot of it during my grad program, That is one of the things like I remember going,

Christian:

but you reached that conclusion? Yeah.

Christopher:

Yeah. That's wild.

Whitney:

From that,

Christian:

I I'm concerned with your processing.

Whitney:

Right. And like and for me, it's not like, yes, you're published. So somebody said this was valid. But I'm like, also I think the other thing we have to consider is that like, in the West, we have a very particular way that we validate knowledge.

Christian:

We do. Mhmm.

Whitney:

You know? And it's very five sensory based. Right? What can you see, hear, smell, touch, taste, like what what is tangible? But that's not the only way of knowing.

Christopher:

No. It's not.

Whitney:

Right? And so There's some

Christian:

More to it.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah. So we do all this like proof.

Christian:

But They don't prove shit.

Christopher:

Yeah. No. Yeah. The the West is very materialistic in terms of how it processes things.

Whitney:

Absolutely. Mhmm.

Christopher:

And so it because of and then becomes fractured and fragmented and everybody's in their particular silos so they don't understand that things are connected.

Whitney:

Yeah. Right. Because you're missing the unseen pieces often.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Right.

Christopher:

If you can't see them, you don't see

Whitney:

You don't value

Christian:

them. Value them. That's it. Yeah. Absolutely.

Christopher:

And so when a topic is highly political, like climate change, of course, trans rights and immigrations, facts alone often fail because the people process that information through their beliefs

Whitney:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

Not outside of them.

Whitney:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

So that's what made me realize one time. I was like, man, he doesn't imagine you have a PhD. You will never be greater than the narratives that you tell yourself.

Christian:

You will

Christopher:

never advance beyond those.

Christian:

Right.

Christopher:

And any new information will be filtered through the narratives that exist in your head.

Whitney:

Absolutely.

Christopher:

And so that's what made me be like, you know what? I can't be in this space because I don't I don't jive with the prevailing narrative. Yeah. And so this is why argument, facts, and stats is always effective. It doesn't address the emotional identity based attachment to the belief.

Christopher:

Instead, it can feel like an attack, making the person even more resistant to change. So how do people change their minds? They bypass defenses. You need to build connection and curiosity first. Just like you were doing with the potential Trump supporter.

Whitney:

You you Probably. I feel confident in that. It's probable. 99

Christopher:

alleged so called.

Whitney:

I didn't even use the name. We can't just call

Christopher:

him Trump. Yeah. Okay. We should call him Trump supporter. I mean, yeah.

Whitney:

I mean, he But he's a human. He is a Trump supporter.

Christian:

He's a Trump supporter.

Whitney:

Patron of your bar.

Christopher:

Yeah. He's a patron of your

Whitney:

Patron of my bar who probably most likely supports the current administration. Yes. At least in some ways. Least in ways. That's what will say.

Whitney:

Right. % on board.

Christopher:

So you, you know, you build connection and curiosity Right. You build connection and curiosity first, find that common ground. And apparently, the most effective approach is called deep canvassing. Who? Deep deep canvassing.

Whitney:

That's what's Canvas. Canvas. Yeah.

Christopher:

Canvassing. And you start by listening, ask open ended questions to understand the perspective.

Christian:

You have conversations?

Christopher:

Share a person's story. Right? But they bring it down for the, you know, for the people that don't understand the whole chunk of have conversation. Yeah. So listen.

Christopher:

Share a personal story. Gently introduce new information that challenges their assumptions in a nonthreatening way and, like, using humor to disarm them. Yeah. This process helps the brain feel safe and allows the RAS and the amygdala to relax and engage the prefrontal cortex where reasoning happens. Yeah.

Christopher:

Way up here. Because when new information comes to the challenge, you're coming back here

Christian:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

In the butt in the back. Survival. Limbic system. Yeah. So you're like, what the fuck?

Christopher:

What the fuck?

Whitney:

Survival. Yeah.

Christopher:

Yeah. Yeah. So facts and stats do matter, but timing and delivery are key.

Whitney:

Always. A %.

Christian:

We talk about this we've talked about this before. I wanna say last season, what did you say? Something to the effect of, is it true? It it might be true but if What else could be true. Not just what else could be true.

Christopher:

It might be true but is it right?

Christian:

Is it right? Because if it's not helpful now, then it's not right.

Whitney:

Like, how is that a Appropriate, I think is a better word. Appropriate.

Christian:

Right.

Whitney:

Yeah. Is right is relative.

Christopher:

That's what I said.

Christian:

Well, I think that's what he was saying.

Christopher:

Yeah. But is it real?

Whitney:

Correct. There it is.

Christopher:

That's hard word.

Christian:

That was the that was that was the phrase yeah. It's like, yes, these are facts and these are figures. But right now, that's not inappropriate.

Whitney:

They're not gonna do the job.

Christian:

You're not you're not getting through. You're trying to make a connection and like remind everyone that is involved in this conversation that we're all human. And at the end of the day we are not the caricatures that have been painted on any particular website or news site or anything. Like, people are not caricatures. People are real human beings and they have complicated ideas.

Christian:

Have a very

Whitney:

Complicated lives. Right.

Christian:

Complicated lives and we're all living in these silos.

Christopher:

Yes.

Christian:

And the reality is they've we've all been fed certain types of information and the only way to not be caught up in that is to talk to real Yeah. Humans.

Christopher:

And social media really prohibits conversation.

Christian:

It doesn't it doesn't facilitate it

Christopher:

at all. It doesn't facilitate it or it it very least, it oversimplifies it and boils it, distills it to our base emotions. Yeah. And it doesn't really allow for the changing of opinions or allow for an actual real time changing of the mind. Yeah.

Christopher:

The Unless it's like a really extended common thread.

Whitney:

Potentially. The only pushback

Christopher:

good faith.

Whitney:

I'll have to that is that I think it can do that. But when that happens, it's usually in person. Yeah. It's usually a, did you see this post? And now we're talking about it in a conversation Very rare.

Whitney:

Back and forth as opposed to in the platform.

Christopher:

Right. Right. And I've seen it happen Rare. Comments. Was like, wow.

Whitney:

It's very Yeah. It's rare in the comments.

Christopher:

Y'all are very evolved human beings. Like, because the way this was going Yeah. I did not

Christian:

I didn't see that coming.

Christopher:

I was like, whoo. Well, thank god. The ones You doing this. Right.

Christian:

Look at y'all being humans on the Internet.

Christopher:

Being humans on the Internet. So it's

Whitney:

just will say. I think you find that more on TikTok. And this is I'm not a TikTok stan. I'm not a social media stan. But I did I think I mentioned this in a previous episode after the whole ban.

Whitney:

I was like, why are these people and like my other best friend really goes up for TikTok like hard. And so I got on. I well, I was already on. I started eyeballing a bit more. Right.

Whitney:

And I was just like, oh, and then you would go to the comment section and it is nothing like Instagram or Facebook or YouTube. Like, it is largely, like, positive. Or if it's not positive, it's not destructively. Interesting.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

It's like people are saying something constructive. And I was just and I'm I'm sure this is not the truth of everybody's TikTok experience.

Christian:

Because it feeds you whatever you want. Yeah. But I'm

Whitney:

new here, so I got a lot of random shit that I didn't want.

Christopher:

Alright. Y'all love TikTok. It it it

Whitney:

You know, like, I feel like the algorithm works a little better over there, but then also there's also this resistance to being super polished. So you don't have to be the best, the brightest, the smartest, the shiniest. Mhmm. You just get to be. And so then I feel like TikTok actually leaves space for people to be a little bit more human.

Whitney:

Now they're try to tell you sell you 17

Christian:

things every

Whitney:

other minute.

Christian:

Yeah. But, like I mean, there's there's there's gonna be a give and take on everything. Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

But, like, I I think there's just more space. Like, I feel like I have seen more of the goodness of humanity or even like watching something that's posted on on both platforms, right, on Instagram and TikTok. The comments that are on Instagram are very different than the comments that are on TikTok. Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

And I'm just like, okay. So maybe if we have less of this facade, then what it actually does is open up the door for real conversation. Maybe it helps us regulate our RAS Yeah. In a way that we can come in a little less armed. Right?

Whitney:

Right. Right. I'm I'm gonna be you're talking to the subject matter expert of TikTok. Right? Everything's not filtered.

Christian:

Right? Every Right. When you're talking to a real person, somebody who's breaking down exactly like all the shitty things that their ex husband has done to them.

Whitney:

Yeah. I'm like Well, that was on Instagram.

Christian:

But I'm just saying, like, when when you have that energy because that's Yeah. That that is more the energy of TikTok as a whole. As I understand it. I'll be on that.

Whitney:

So far.

Christian:

The energy of TikTok as a whole as I understand it because I'll be on there. I'm a say it again. Don't come for me because I'll be on there. I listen to people who

Whitney:

talk barely on anywhere. If y'all listening now, y'all not coming for her.

Christopher:

If it ain't no book, she ain't on it.

Christian:

I mean, BookTok. BookTok. No. Bookstagram.

Whitney:

Oh, sorry. That's what I meant. Yeah.

Christian:

I don't be on BookTok either.

Christopher:

If it ain't a book, if it ain't me, she ain't on it.

Whitney:

Jesus. We didn't need that. I'm sorry. What's happening?

Christopher:

Alright. I'm a cut that down.

Whitney:

I feel like don't cut it out. At this point, it's ridiculous. But there

Christian:

there is there is a degree But your collective

Christopher:

gasp at that is

Whitney:

It wasn't a gasp. It was a gaffa.

Christian:

That made me laugh. Your face what you said. I'm just like, well,

Whitney:

kid in the room, gross mom and dad are being weird.

Christian:

You're talking about trying to be more vulnerable in a a society that's kind of obsessed with filters and perfection. Yeah. Being, you know, having the opportunity to gauge engage with people who are not necessarily trying to debut their best self Yeah. Is a little bit more disarming. I I can definitely see that being true.

Whitney:

It is. Right?

Christian:

It allows you to not come in, you know, guns blazing, so to speak.

Whitney:

And it gives you space to be human because they're showing up as human. Yeah.

Christopher:

And so

Whitney:

I think in our world where we, as a society, tend to like repress emotion Mhmm. That is a really welcomed and refreshing thing to like be able to just exist Mhmm. As a person. Yeah. Exactly.

Whitney:

We'll be in a bonnets crying on TikTok. Like, that's that's a thing.

Christopher:

Right. That's yeah.

Christian:

I'm not in a lie. I I am more of a fan of Betty who be baking for the different No. That's that's the way I Cracking up.

Christopher:

Do that. Some sometimes I'll be I remember in my early years of social media, and I will see the foolishness on online, and I'll be like, you know, like, the one place where you have a chance to present your best self

Christian:

You put this up.

Christopher:

You put this shit out without thought, and I don't understand people are struggling.

Whitney:

That was an assumption. It. Without thought was an assumption.

Christopher:

Yeah. Without without thought. It is an assumption. It is. But it was just definitely just like, wow.

Christopher:

Like, you know, again, all the all my grandma's years of grandma training me in the drama department and and like Yes. Presentation.

Whitney:

Yes. Being trained to perform.

Christopher:

Yeah. Treat yeah. Like, this is presentation. It's like, look, I get it. Real me.

Christopher:

I could be it. But like online, I could I could be what I think I am in my mind and put that out there. Yeah. And like, you know, but what you know, it's and it's because I know there's people that's judging me or or things like that. And so I was like, alright.

Christopher:

The one like, that's it seems weird. But, like, in in person and stuff like that, I feel like, yeah, the relationship dynamic can be different. But online, it's like, yo, this is something we're serving up because I'm again, I'm still in TV mode

Christian:

Yeah.

Christopher:

Hollywood mode.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher:

You know? And but TikTok definitely subverts that.

Whitney:

It does, which I appreciate. Yeah.

Christopher:

I appreciate it. You know, now because like you said, it is it is authentic.

Whitney:

And I think that's it. Right? Like, meeting this push to be able, like, I I think that is what we're craving is being able to show up authentically in in so many different spaces. And so, like, I think about, like, how emotion is often perceived. Emotion or authenticity even is perceived as weakness or it can be.

Whitney:

Right? You're having a particularly vulnerable moment and it's there's this one example. I don't know if I've given this already and if I have, oh, well, you will deal. This is reinforcement. Right.

Whitney:

There in the former work environment, there was this young girl, young lovely girl Mhmm. Did a great job and ended up, like, leaving the company not willingly.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And I ended up meeting up with her because that's my thing. Like, I just believe in connecting with young black talent and

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Especially as you're if you're sitting in a position of supervisory whatever and she didn't report to me but like Mhmm. I also have connections and you know what I'm saying? Like, I just believe in big up in each other. And this is not just true for women. Like, there this I have done this with the the black boys, the black men, young men that have Right.

Whitney:

I just you know, we gotta support each other and Yep. Use our social capital Yep. To help each other leverage. Yep. Yeah.

Whitney:

And so she and I went to happy hour and she was explaining like how the because I told I was I was actually worried about her the whole time because of who she was reporting to. And I just happen to know that person is not fully a person yet and they really are still developing their own sense of identity, which can make them really difficult Yep. In moments when you are authentic and have a sense of identity. And she was describing to me a moment where she got so frustrated in a meeting where like she just compulsively started crying. But not like crying just like my face is leaking.

Whitney:

Yep. Right? Because she was she was frustrated, she was angry because this woman, white woman, was telling her some bullshit. And she was just like, the the the struggle to like, how do I say what the fuck I need to say? But also like, not get viewed as an angry black woman but also like, it was a lot.

Whitney:

Right? Mhmm. And she so she recognizes that she's crying and she says to her, I don't want you to perceive my crying as weakness. Like, I'm okay. Right.

Whitney:

And the woman says to her, oh, but it is weakness. That got a HR call. But

Christopher:

That yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. But this idea that, like, you showing up as human and having a full range of emotion

Christian:

Is weak. And the

Whitney:

girl wasn't wailing or, you know

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Her face was leaking. She's wiping her face and was like, basically, like, I don't want you to worry about that part. Like, let's continue in this conversation.

Christian:

Right.

Whitney:

And then this woman jumps back with a, oh, no. No. No. I've judged you. Yeah.

Whitney:

Don't worry. I've already done it. And I'm like, that one, that pissed me off. Two, that pissed me. Oh.

Whitney:

White people going white. Men hold up. Especially the ones that think they not. They are most at risk.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Because y'all think y'all allies and y'all got it. Right. And you don't always got it, beloved.

Christopher:

Just the level of lack of care.

Whitney:

For a white woman to stare a black woman who is in an environment that is actively anti black and tell her she's weak makes me wanna punch shit.

Christopher:

It does. I I it did

Christian:

I decided I was gonna be quiet.

Christopher:

Yeah. It it it definitely did something in my body when I

Christian:

I'm so sick. I'm just

Christopher:

It's like,

Whitney:

Oh, and that's how I felt. But even in like, she handled herself so well. Yeah. You know, and even after all that ended up getting let go for reasons that I think were dubious. To my bullshit.

Whitney:

They were. They were. And they they I ain't gonna say too much because I'm not supposed to know everything I know. But

Christian:

No shit.

Whitney:

But it's dubious shit. And so it was it was one of those moments where I was like, wow. A, you just had the balls to say it. B, a lot of people think that way. Mhmm.

Whitney:

Right? And so, like, this person is telling you and like, what would have been, I think, really affirming in that space is a validation of her humanity.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Right? To say, well, no. Do we need to

Christian:

take a break? That would have been wise.

Whitney:

Right? Like, do we just need to take a break? Should we table this conversation and return to it in an hour or whenever? Right?

Christian:

In a minute.

Whitney:

Right. Because also recognizing this is a professional relationship, you may not want to open up to me.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And I'm not gonna ask that if you are require I might give you space but I would do that because I have different connections with the people that work for me. Sure. But you also don't you're not obligated to.

Christian:

Yeah. And I mean, that right there is one of the reasons that so many of us, especially black women especially in corporate America Yeah. Or even nonprofit America like you were. Nonprofit industrial complex. Him too.

Christian:

She's a bitch. We spend so much energy suppressing emotions. Yeah. Like professionally. Yeah.

Christian:

And then we go home and do it because you don't you don't wanna be the angry black girl. You don't wanna be the nagging wife. You don't wanna be you know, you don't wanna be the problem. Don't wanna be the one who's causing issues. Right?

Christian:

Like there's all these labels that get thrown at you as soon as you show up as like a human. It's like you're not allowed to be angry, you're not allowed to be too sad, you're not allowed to be too happy because that can piss people off too. You know?

Whitney:

Crazy. He's

Christian:

like, you're not allowed to be at the end of the day.

Whitney:

Right.

Christian:

And like no wonder people try to hide their emotions and pretend they're not crying and

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christian:

And pretend they're not upset or just you know brush stuff off, ignore slights, ignore straight up attacks, or, you know, pretend they're not happening, whatever

Whitney:

it is. Object them to the wrong people.

Christian:

Because I

Whitney:

think, like, your experience is one. Like, stuff here. I stuff there. I stuff everywhere. Everybody don't got that.

Whitney:

Some people are under so much pressure that if I stuff here, it's gotta come out here.

Christian:

Oh, you know where it comes out? With the one person who can't do anything. My kid.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

Yeah. Constantly. Me and Chris both have this conversation all the time. Like, that stuff Mhmm.

Whitney:

Was it? That's usually where it

Christian:

comes You shove it in there, and for whatever reason, we've all decided, like tacitly but without saying it out loud, the kids are not the same as adults as far as like what they deserve and how they deserve to be treated. Yeah. And so yeah, if my husband won't do what I want, I have to stuff it down. If my mama won't do what I want, I have to stuff it down because I can't control them. They're adults.

Christian:

But if my kid won't do what I want, I'm a yell, I'm a scream, I'm a pick them up, I'm a bodily force them to do what they want and tell them to shut the fuck up while I do it.

Christopher:

Have not done any of these things.

Whitney:

This is this is the emotional part. We

Christopher:

we have not done

Whitney:

not call CPs. I am here. I'm a mandated reporter. There is nothing of no concern.

Christopher:

We have not done anything.

Whitney:

There's no concern.

Christian:

As a society and the way we treat children.

Whitney:

Yes.

Christian:

And this is the thing. You can see this.

Christopher:

I know we both felt the need to

Christian:

be.

Whitney:

We're like, wait a minute. Okay. You're you're speaking real passionately like my niece is in danger and she's not.

Christopher:

I have not seen these things to my father. I would have said something by now.

Whitney:

I certainly would have said something because I don't I don't give a damn. I I give plenty of dams about the little one.

Christian:

I mean, you give dams about all of us.

Whitney:

I do give dams about all yes. But that's why. Because I give dams about all of you.

Christian:

You know I mean? There

Christopher:

you go.

Christian:

The most we do is yell at Sydney. And it's usually when you've been trying to cajole, cajole, cajole, then it's just like I know.

Whitney:

I was like, even then, that's like, we have gone beyond the threshold of, like, processing.

Christian:

Right. And so but but at the end of the day, I'm not yelling at Chris.

Whitney:

Right.

Christian:

I'm not yelling at Chris.

Whitney:

That's crazy. I can try. I'm

Christian:

just kidding. What? Please don't yell at Chris. What?

Christopher:

I immediately shut down. Yeah.

Christian:

He immediately shut down and that's when I knew I needed to go to therapy because I was like, I don't yell. Yeah. What is this? What is this? Yeah.

Christian:

And then like once I dialed back like whatever the anger, it was in there. It had been simmering. Absolutely. But I had been stuff stuff stuffing and trying not to let it like explode on

Whitney:

you buddy

Christian:

like a net. No more like a turkey. You need a bigger cavity. I'm just saying.

Whitney:

That's a big ass.

Christian:

I had a deep well.

Whitney:

Yeah, no, that's real.

Christian:

Okay, I got shit to be mad about. Thank you so long for that. Okay. Because once you told me that and I listened to that song, I was like, fuck yeah.

Whitney:

This is my anthem, hoe.

Christian:

I got shit to be mad about. Damn got

Whitney:

a lot be mad about. I got a lot to be mad about. No. Love when you interject a cuss word. You know I love cussing.

Christian:

Works. I got a lot of shit to be mad about. How about that?

Whitney:

Put it all together. God damn it. But I mean I love it.

Christian:

The the way that we have been taught that our emotions are inconvenient.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

Yes. I have a friend who's going through a really tough time and she's just been talking about like, she just she doesn't have time Mhmm. To process her grief. Oh, right.

Whitney:

That's the grief process your ass.

Christian:

Oh, it is. And like, that was what we were talking about. She's like, I I don't have time to do this. I'm falling behind at work and this that and the other. But I I I just can't.

Christian:

Yeah. I no longer to can as you would say.

Whitney:

Do I say that?

Christian:

You have said it and it made me laugh. That's crazy. And I never forgot. Yeah.

Whitney:

I was like, was I 26?

Christian:

You might have been. I remember random shit. But you know, like, just that that reality of we don't get to be full humans. Yeah. But, like, that's not that's not how humans work.

Whitney:

No. But and I think I'm sorry, Chris.

Christopher:

Were you

Whitney:

gonna have to say something?

Christopher:

I am I have something that I was gonna say. So I'm a I've gotta figure out a way to circle it back. Okay.

Whitney:

No worries. Okay. So and I've I have been I've actually said this to a couple of people recently. Part of the issue, and I'm about to get real political.

Christopher:

Mhmm. Go ahead. Politicize.

Whitney:

Is that we treat capitalism as if it is more than just an economic system. And so capitalism is pro like, literally predicated on Mhmm. End goal, end product, how much can you produce Yes. Where are the fucking widgets?

Christian:

Yes. Yes.

Whitney:

Right?

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

We take that then and apply it to each other and ourselves. We do. Our relationships. That's how we get to like, oh, counting up the how many things did you do for me? Well, I did this many for you.

Whitney:

Right. Oh, yeah. Yes. You bring table. They ain't number capitalism.

Whitney:

What do you bring to the table? That's nothing but capitalism like master's interpersonal relationship. That's all it is. It's about what is our end product? What have you produced for me?

Whitney:

And we so like, often, vulnerability is in the way. It's inconvenient. Because it's inefficient Right. And inconvenient. You know how I feel about inefficiency.

Whitney:

I know how you are about inefficiency. I used to be the same way. You know, I don't give a fuck.

Christian:

I'm working on it. You know? I'm working on it because You are. It does not it doesn't align with my actual values. Exactly.

Christian:

We talked about this at the beginning. Yes. It does not align with my values.

Whitney:

Correct.

Christian:

Values that have been assigned to us, it aligns with that shit. Yeah. I don't I don't agree with that.

Whitney:

Mhmm.

Christian:

That is damaging. Exactly. That is inconvenient to me being a human, goddamn it.

Christopher:

Right. Right.

Whitney:

And what it ends up doing and I can speak this from my personal is that like, so often because IT was an efficient child. Right? Like, how can I like be proficient

Christian:

Mhmm?

Whitney:

So that we can get through all this shit quickly and I am impressive, bitch. Right? Like You

Christian:

can be impressive. Right.

Whitney:

Mhmm. I'm performing well. All the time. Right. Alright.

Whitney:

And what ended up happening is I can remember, like, I've I've been through several rounds of therapy in my life. And the last one I went through, my therapist, as great as she is, she left me upset with myself and not her. Because she was just like, you have this habit of intellectualizing your emotions.

Christian:

Yeah. Me too. Because

Whitney:

intellectualizing feels like an efficient way of handling it. Right? If I can just understand it, then I'll stop it. That's not real. No.

Whitney:

That's not real. People oh, when you know better, you do better. Who the fuck does that?

Christopher:

No. Nobody does.

Whitney:

Nobody does that. People know plenty.

Christopher:

Shit.

Whitney:

People know plenty and they're still not doing better because more than that goes into being human. Being human is more complex than widgets. Right? We're not Than outputs. And so, like, when vulnerability is in the way.

Whitney:

Right? Like, they're hell, they're I'm gonna be really open right now. Y'all better not cut this out. Like Okay. We had an entire episode.

Whitney:

We threw away.

Christian:

We scrapped the whole damn thing.

Christopher:

Oh,

Whitney:

yeah.

Christian:

Scrapped the whole damn thing.

Christopher:

Oh,

Whitney:

yeah. Because it really what needed to happen was vulnerable conversation between the three of us. And if not like in a dramatic way, we ain't got no static. No beef. Ain't never been.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

But we just needed to be open with each other. Yeah. Right? And it was crazy because we were talking about vulnerability this season. We weren't there.

Whitney:

And so then we had to have a vulnerable conversation about, shit, this is not an episode, is it?

Christian:

Nope. Nope. Nope. Mm-mm.

Whitney:

Nope. But we needed this conversation. So was it inefficient? Yes. Highly.

Christian:

Because it

Whitney:

And that really bothered that one.

Christian:

It did. Most of

Whitney:

all, it bothered our efficient Maven.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Because then we had to rerecord. Yeah. There were But what we rerecord it It was much better. So much better.

Christian:

I Without a doubt.

Whitney:

Right? Without a doubt.

Christopher:

Right. And and I think that's even a like you said, the the crave for efficiency can sometimes be a farce.

Christian:

Because Oh, absolutely.

Christopher:

You look at, like, even what Hollywood, it's punk out, and all of that Yeah. Especially for its artists or, like, in the music industry Yeah. Like, I think Michael Jackson, they like, he took so many takes Yes. Or whatever to get it done, but, they gave him the space to do that

Christian:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

Because of what the output would would have been

Whitney:

Absolutely.

Christopher:

On their time. So, like, all that studio time, all that, you know, conversations with Quincy Jones and all that shit, and and, you know, so many beats that Timberland or Kanye produced that that never got because Yep. It wasn't highly tuned and finely tuned enough. So we we we know as a society to make space for people and to be gratuitous in the time that they need to take to produce something when it comes to, like,

Whitney:

creativity.

Christopher:

Creativity and art. But it's it's we just don't I feel that we don't necessarily translate that over all the time

Whitney:

Yeah. When it comes

Christian:

to Oh, we definitely do.

Christopher:

Human relationships.

Whitney:

Which is crazy because I

Christopher:

We should be over this by now.

Whitney:

No. Which is crazy. But that's how people treat it. And I have the it's funny y'all. So I I have a morning practice of, like, meditation and and things.

Whitney:

And one of the things and I actually shared this with a client. And here's the thing. Every I've shared it with a friend. I shared it with a client. Every time I retell it, I feel like it's not as good as it is in my journal.

Whitney:

I'm like, so y'all just gonna have to get this watered down version of this.

Christopher:

You don't have to be a journal.

Christian:

It just could be

Christopher:

He say, what? Just read the journal.

Whitney:

Never. That's for me.

Christopher:

I'm sorry.

Whitney:

Was You gonna get what you gonna

Christian:

get out. Fellas, tell us what we're gonna do.

Whitney:

But the analogy that came to me because the universe speaks to me in analogies because that's what I understand.

Christian:

That's good.

Whitney:

Well, it also speaks directly. But this one needed I needed an analogy. And it was I I in transparency, I often struggle with the idea of being seen Mhmm. Mhmm. Because and I may have talked about this already.

Whitney:

Because of the I like, the fear of being misperceived. Mhmm. Misunderstood and all that. Yeah. Misperceived in in so many ways.

Christian:

Yeah.

Christopher:

Right?

Whitney:

And what came to me very clearly was, honey, the art doesn't worry about who's looking at it. Damn. And it it it literally laid it out.

Christian:

I don't know how that could be better in your journal.

Whitney:

Well, because it's it's literally like laid out almost like a sermon. And so

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

It's laid out in such a way that was like, art is created for truly the creator. Like, the art that you feel whatever. Right? And there will be people that look at your art and walk by.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Because they don't resonate.

Christian:

Right.

Whitney:

There will be people that they stop because it resonates, but they don't quite get it. Yeah. Right. There's gonna be people that come and stand and spend time with it because it's unfolding. It's a story.

Whitney:

Yeah. And maybe they get something completely different than what you got, but they are valuing this part. Right?

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Maybe the people that are like, oh, I see it. I love it. I get it. Yeah. Right?

Whitney:

Or the I see it. I love it. I don't get it. Right? Right.

Christian:

Like, there's all

Whitney:

these different experiences because people have all these different lenses, and it's never yours.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

It's No one shares your lens.

Christopher:

The creative process really challenges your sense of control.

Whitney:

And I think this is so this is what the analogy, like, going further, what it was was is like, you don't actually make art for the people walking by.

Christian:

Mhmm. Make it for you.

Whitney:

And the people walking by don't determine the value of the art. The creator determines the value of the art. Damn. And beloved, you are both the art and the artist. Well.

Whitney:

And I said

Christopher:

Chitters chiseling yourself out

Christian:

of the story. Oh, shit. Damn.

Whitney:

But but, like, that's what it was. And so then for me translating that, if I am both the art and the artist baby, sometimes art take time

Christian:

to develop. Art takes time.

Christopher:

It does.

Whitney:

It's a creative process. And some of it is an an ongoing process. It is a constantly developing like a living project because I'm a human.

Christian:

Right. I'm a human.

Christopher:

Oh oh.

Whitney:

I'm a human.

Christian:

I'm a human. But I mean, think about when you're thinking about like not being allowed to feel emotions, like

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

How is art supposed to make you feel nothing if the artist don't have time to put no feeling in it?

Whitney:

Or if the artist is trying to capture your feeling instead

Christian:

of their experience. Right? Right. Yeah. About like not having time to feel your own emotions, them being inconvenient.

Christian:

We talked about this earlier, like the idea, you know, everybody's favorite two word two word scripture, Jesus wept. You know, it's like Jesus wept. Yeah. Jesus flipped over tables. He swept blood too.

Christian:

Like Jesus Yeah. Is having intense emotions. Yeah. What makes you think You're above it.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

You don't you not gonna have none.

Christopher:

Again, this goes back to this idea of othering God. Yeah. Yep. Point that you can identify with him to find validation in your own experience as a divine being.

Whitney:

Correct. Or even as a human being.

Christopher:

As a human being.

Whitney:

Because I think like the purpose of Jesus was to come down and not only experience humanity, but like demonstrate humanity Yeah. Mhmm. And the range of humanity. Yeah.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

And so like, if Jesus get mad.

Christian:

Yeah. I mean I mean I some

Christopher:

funny stories about his frustration with the disciples. Yeah.

Whitney:

Is. I get that because them niggas was dense.

Christian:

Dense. And he's like, are y'all serious? Right. This is the conversation we're having?

Christopher:

Tell me some things.

Christian:

I'm sorry.

Whitney:

It's up. Listen, as a as a high schooler, I felt so validated in my sarcastic nature because Jesus was so sarcastic in the gospel.

Christian:

Spicy. Like So spicy. Just and I

Whitney:

loved it.

Christian:

I'm like,

Whitney:

well, if Jesus can call you niggas dumb without calling you niggas dumb.

Christian:

I can too. I just need more words. That's what I'm learning. Yes.

Christopher:

I remember. Yeah.

Whitney:

Maybe a different position of my heart.

Christopher:

Somebody somebody said Jesus was teaching the temple and or either teaching or healing somebody or whatever. He was on a crusade, a revival. Uh-huh. And somebody came and said, hey, man. Caesar wants to kill you.

Christopher:

And he said, you tell that fox I'll be here today.

Christian:

And tomorrow. And the day after I'm

Christopher:

going over here. Like, you can come come find me, nigga. Right. My ass is like

Christian:

Catch me outside.

Whitney:

You know what By that

Christian:

is what he said.

Christopher:

Jesus is

Christian:

catch me outside.

Christopher:

So look.

Christian:

I mean think about every time you see

Christopher:

call that nigga a fox.

Christian:

Jesus does not like we we were actually doing this before we started the podcast. I got in my feelings about something and I was like, let me turn I need to find some music to like

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

Turn into like podcast Christian real quick. Mhmm. But Whitney was like, you don't have to do that. You can just be you can take that feeling into the podcast because vulnerability and I was like, fuck. Really don't.

Christian:

Yeah. Okay.

Christopher:

Anger's crazy.

Whitney:

Or just because of your humanity.

Christian:

And so but I like when you were you know, like Jesus whip. There's a reason that that's the full sentence. The nigga sat down and let his emotions emote.

Whitney:

Yeah. That's right.

Christian:

Jesus Jesus said he went and prayed and he cried until he bled. That's a period. He didn't the angels came and helped him out but he just sat there and he kept crying. Yep. Mhmm.

Christian:

He he moved through it. He kept doing it till it was done though. Yes. He kept doing it till it was done. He turned over those tables and beat them niggas out the temple until they was gone.

Christopher:

Until they moved.

Whitney:

You got to see it through to like to the and listen, It's so funny. I have a client who I've been like it's pretty young client work walk well, you know, we've been walking through this. And so that was like her homework assignment. It was like, next time a difficult commotion emotion comes up Mhmm.

Christian:

Just sit with it. Instead of trying

Whitney:

to mess it. Don't do anything with it. Mhmm. Just sit. And so we did like a how did it go?

Whitney:

And she was just like, it took a while. It was uncomfortable at first. Here's where I felt it in my body. I was like, fantastic. You're somatizing.

Whitney:

I love this. And then she was just like, you know, and it was like intense for the first few minutes and then it was less intense. And then she was like, but the crazy thing is is it hasn't come back up. I was like, because it's done.

Christian:

Yeah. Perfect. I was

Whitney:

like, emotions. And I've said this on here. Emotions have a natural start and end. But the problem is we're so busy trying to, oh, Emotions are bad. I don't wanna like, don't even wanna be vulnerable with yourself Right.

Whitney:

Enough to have this experience that you truncate the truncate it so it doesn't get to resolve. So it comes back up all the time so that you can resolve it.

Christopher:

Resolve it.

Christian:

Yeah. So

Christopher:

It's just like music. Yes. You stay up here, but you you have to bring it back home to the one.

Christian:

Yes. Gotta you gotta you gotta bring it

Whitney:

down.

Christopher:

Because if you don't bring it back, it just doesn't feel Resolved.

Christian:

Done. Yeah.

Christopher:

Right. You're resolved.

Christian:

Yep. So you you used the word. You said you're somatizing. What is that?

Whitney:

You actually feel emotion in your body. Okay. Which we all experience, we don't all we're not all aware.

Christian:

This is this is my I I have become aware of it and and mine is usually nausea. Mhmm.

Whitney:

Oh. Yeah.

Christian:

I've become aware of it because it happened the other day when we were having discussions at work about certain bodies of water having to have their name changed when you can recognize other people changing their names. I was sitting in there and there was discussions about the fact that like the CEOs and people who are having this like making presentations and shit in certain countries, they have to use the name of the body of water depending on the country that they're in. Otherwise, it's gonna be a problem. And I was just sitting there staring at the wall like, I'm gonna be sick.

Christopher:

Yeah. She texted me that.

Christian:

Was gonna be sick. And then something else happened late oh, I needed to file one of these government reports and it was on the website and I sent her a picture and I was like, I'm gonna be sick. And then I said it earlier. Uh-huh. I'm gonna be

Whitney:

I did.

Christian:

Oh, okay. Nausea, that is where this is Yeah. My stomach is like, fuck it all.

Whitney:

I was like, but that also so different for each individual, different feelings show up in different places. You are often experiencing disgust.

Christian:

Oh, well, it's these are all the same feelings. But yes.

Whitney:

Yes. But it makes sense that disgust would make you nauseated.

Christian:

These are all the same feeling. There yes. Other feelings show up other places. But that's so somatizing is the feeling of where

Whitney:

The disgust the feeling of disgust makes me nauseated. Yeah. The feeling of anxiety makes my chest tight. I feel it in my chest and my shoulders. Yeah.

Whitney:

Right? This is why somatic work is about moving emotion through your body and out of your body.

Christian:

That's why I wanted to back up and ask that I heard you say the word, but I was like, I'm a let her finish her story. I'm a

Whitney:

let you finish, but I got a

Christian:

question. Right.

Christopher:

Yeah. We and it's funny because we were having it's interesting because we have two different reactions to that same

Whitney:

Uh-huh.

Christopher:

Situation.

Christian:

Yeah. We do.

Christopher:

She's more like, I can't believe this is happening. This is disgusting. And I'm like, this shit ain't mine. That's you. And I I I tend to get dissociative because I'm like, I can't let you get me upset about this because you're doing real shit

Christian:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

That I need to be upset about. I can't be focused and distracted by the absurdities that I don't have enough energy to resist the atrocities.

Whitney:

Yeah. And That's real.

Christopher:

And I'm like, look, I I get it. This sucks. Alright. Well Yeah. Now.

Whitney:

Yeah. But both experiences are valid.

Christopher:

It both are valid. Yeah. Yeah. And then sometimes I'm looking at that. Do I need to be more upset about this?

Christopher:

Because I'm like, you know, like, baby dissociation is not the greatest thing right now.

Whitney:

Yeah. And

Christopher:

I'm glad to it was very much I don't like feeling anger. Yeah. And so I will find a way to

Whitney:

Uh-huh.

Christopher:

Discard what is like, okay, what is more important than this so that I can feel like I'm okay to let this go. Yeah. But sometimes I may need to sit with it.

Whitney:

That's interesting. I don't I think I process all of this a little differently. Yeah.

Christian:

Well, mean, that's probably true for like everybody on the planet. Well, that's true.

Christopher:

But yes. Yeah. How you process?

Christian:

There's gonna be some some But I mean, this is this is like and I I think I've talked about the situation that happened on my birthday. My birthday was the day after election day. And like, the both of them gave me what I needed in that moment because y'all, I I cried the whole fucking morning.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christian:

My birthday was November the sixth of twenty twenty four and

Whitney:

I it's that every year.

Christian:

Well well, 2024. It was Wednesday morning and I cried the entire morning. Yep. And the both of them gave me different things that I needed. Mhmm.

Christian:

Chris knew I needed quiet. But I also needed to celebrate. And he was like, you ain't got to talk and I literally wore we were out, we sat outside but I wore my sunglasses into the building when I had to go pee. I wore my sunglasses the entire time we were there. But then he also had them bring me pancakes with a candle.

Whitney:

Right? Like That's like what husband does.

Christian:

Right? And so then Whitney was like, when when I talked to Whitney, Whitney was like It's where you at.

Whitney:

Birthday. Well,

Christian:

I mean, you did both though.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christian:

Right? You sat with me and were like, yeah, this is fucking this fucking sucks. And then you were like, this is how I feel about it. But that doesn't change how you feel about it. And I don't expect it to.

Christian:

I just wanted to share. Yeah. And then the two of them colluded and were like, you will we're we're not you're not gonna sit in a house and be sad all day.

Whitney:

No. You're gonna your fucking birthday.

Christopher:

Right. Right. It's your birthday. I'm letting this nigga rub.

Whitney:

Period. Right. Wife's birthday.

Christian:

Period. They colluded to make sure that As we do. As you do. To make sure I had an enjoyable birthday. And like that, I think that right there, that is why community and vulnerability is so important.

Christian:

Yeah. Because I could have pretended I wasn't feeling what I was feeling and they wouldn't have known what I needed in that moment. We

Christopher:

would have known.

Christian:

Well, I mean, they would have known but that's because we're already in community.

Whitney:

Correct.

Christian:

But I was actually able to like be honest about it Yeah. Instead of trying to like pretend and then go home and cry at night by myself. No. I cried when both of them niggas did. Yeah.

Christian:

Which was nice. And welcomed.

Christopher:

Yeah. Was like because like I was like, yeah. Like, this shit is terrible.

Christian:

Yeah. It's yeah. So Well and like, Chris didn't cry. Was the one crying.

Christopher:

I don't think I cried any neither one. I was angry. I was less angry this time. But because it happened at the end, was like, okay.

Christian:

Oh, yeah.

Christopher:

No. Niggas go on Nick. This is what this is about.

Christian:

Well, all all

Christopher:

Twenty sixteen, I

Christian:

was I was like No. 12.

Christopher:

I was on 12.

Whitney:

I was in shock in 2016. But but like, I don't here's the

Christopher:

One in '24, I was still upset, but not

Christian:

Oh, no. I was

Christopher:

Go ahead.

Whitney:

Oh, no.

Christopher:

Go ahead.

Christian:

I ex I I wasn't surprised, I was just Disappointed. I was so viscerally disappointed.

Whitney:

Yeah. And

Christian:

you know, in 2016, don't get me wrong, I was freaked out. I was. Yeah. But now I got a kid. Yeah.

Christian:

Yes. Is

Christopher:

like It different.

Christian:

And everything feels more extreme and more like back then, it was like, oh, this is bad for all of us, but this is bad for very specific groups of people and y'all are not thinking about them. And then it was like, no, y'all have fucked all of us and y'all really just don't

Christopher:

Y'all don't get it.

Christian:

I'm like

Christopher:

I'd have got a book this time.

Christian:

And they told they put it out early.

Christopher:

It was haphazardly.

Whitney:

Like OJ Simpson. Y'all remember when he wrote that book, I didn't do it but if I did Yes. Right.

Christian:

But it's the prequel. It's like he published his manifesto of a crime he was going to commit later Yeah. And people were like, he's not doing it. He won't

Whitney:

do it. Oh, no. No. He published it afterwards. No.

Whitney:

No. No. No. But yes. Yeah.

Whitney:

Got you.

Christian:

Yes. That's 40¢. It would be like he published that book before the murder. And was like, here

Whitney:

here is my intent to murder.

Christian:

Right. Then people were like, he ain't do it. He won't do it. He won't murder. Right.

Christopher:

Yeah. Like this racism I'm used to. Stupidity, really incenses me.

Christian:

They go together.

Christopher:

They do. Do.

Christian:

You have a trouble. Barbie together. They took Oh my god.

Christopher:

But it's like, I didn't know the depths to which that was going to go It it where you voted for that name.

Whitney:

Oh, that's interesting. Like,

Christopher:

again, it's I I have this theory that stupidity is like, you think it's the bottom, and then the bottom falls.

Whitney:

Drops. Like,

Christopher:

if there's more stupid things

Whitney:

Yeah. I don't have that.

Christopher:

Like, it it it has no fouls to go down. So so yeah. Like, it's so but again, it's like, you even knowing that, it's still just kinda like, damn. Like, y'all really stupid. Y'all did read.

Whitney:

There are some

Christopher:

This y'all failed an open book test. This is wild.

Whitney:

It was an open book Open book. Really was.

Christopher:

And I'm just gonna say that was an open book. It was.

Whitney:

It was an open book. Here's the thing. This is where and listen, I'm a say this and I don't want nobody to take this the wrong way. Sometimes trauma prepares you for trauma. Yeah.

Whitney:

Because I'm just sitting here like, none of this shit surprised me. I expected all of it. Spiritually, it's been in the the realm.

Christopher:

Like The cosmos.

Whitney:

Yeah. Like, I've I've felt it for years. And so like, I'm I'm very much like a, oh, okay. Y'all keep breathing in and out. Just prepare yourselves.

Whitney:

But like Mhmm. By prepare yourselves, what I mean is like learn yourself, ground within yourself. Because Right. Everything feels topsy-turvy because there's a lot of externalized power and control. Bring that shit in house because that's all you got.

Christopher:

That's all you

Christian:

got.

Whitney:

That's all you got. And I know that's a tall task. That's not

Christian:

a Yeah.

Whitney:

An easy thing to do. It's a simple thing to say not that

Christopher:

Especially when everything in society has been externalized for you.

Whitney:

It has. Right? Because that's how we've all been But like I think for me, I you know, difficult childhoods Yeah. Help you realize that like when I can't control shit

Christian:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

I can Here are the things I can control. Right? I think there was some point like even in my adolescence where it was like, even feel like I can control me and I feel like these adults supposed to be control able to control themselves and they're more sadder than I am. Yeah.

Christian:

So Yeah.

Whitney:

Let me figure this out. Right? And so it took a while But I just I feel like I've been prompt for this my whole life. Sometimes listen, sometimes obstacles really teach you how to maneuver over obstacles. And what I'm learning is, nobody had the same type of obstacles No.

Whitney:

And people are struggling. And and like and it's valid.

Christopher:

And they call us snowflakes. That's

Christian:

the problem. Yeah. No. That's the problem.

Whitney:

You know.

Christopher:

You just

Whitney:

You know.

Christian:

Who who

Whitney:

And what what I will say is when I said they is

Christian:

different from you.

Whitney:

Right. When I said they, I was not referring to a group of other.

Christian:

No, you weren't. Right.

Whitney:

So that I'm clear.

Christian:

But I mean, is a better list. That's everybody.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christian:

Yeah. Literally. Is that

Whitney:

a it's a large portion of this population. I don't wanna say it's everybody. Because I think there are, at least in my the circles in which I run, this is a common react and not necessarily because everybody's traumatized, but I think

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

When your focus isn't on this realm or, like, when you're when you see beyond the action of humans to larger Right. Concepts, then perspective shifts a little

Christian:

bit. Sure.

Whitney:

Yeah. And so like, I don't I don't know that everybody's struggling in the same way because I'm I don't

Christopher:

No.

Whitney:

I'm the only thing I'm struggling is prioritizing preparation. That's the only thing I'm struggling.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

I'm not like I expect I expect niggas to niggas and by niggas I don't mean black people. Yep. Not in this context.

Christopher:

Right. They're same cosign on them.

Christian:

Yep too though. Some of them. Hey. Some of them.

Whitney:

Hey. And they will and then they shall and

Christian:

And they have.

Whitney:

They must.

Christian:

And they have. They have and they continue to weep.

Whitney:

That part.

Christian:

But yeah. No. Like, when Sorry.

Whitney:

What just happened? Which is no. I I didn't even catch that.

Christian:

What what? I didn't even.

Christopher:

Oh, that's a old song.

Whitney:

What did you sing?

Christopher:

By Daryl Coley.

Christian:

Say that again. I

Whitney:

Is it I will

Christopher:

I wish I

Christian:

must watch your night. That's what

Whitney:

I was referring to. Yeah. You caught it. Okay. Great.

Whitney:

You're Exactly what

Christian:

like I miss both.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

I miss both. That is

Whitney:

a song that lives in rotation in my head.

Christopher:

Mhmm. I love

Whitney:

Daryl He was great. Daryl Coley was amazing.

Christopher:

You remember he did that national anthem on the center? Daryl. That was

Christian:

That is so so That is such a specific thing that only certain people of the population were actually going to understand what

Whitney:

was Like y'all had Black Rider in the room.

Christian:

They went for it.

Christopher:

Yeah. They went for it.

Christian:

And I can agree because even I didn't want I didn't grow up watching The Simpsons, whatever, make what you would love it. But I saw that and was like, oh, oh, wow. Yeah, that's Darryl. That's Darryl.

Christopher:

That is Darryl all day.

Christian:

Darryl? Darryl too. When Sunday comes oh my god.

Whitney:

Sunday comes. My troubles come.

Christopher:

As soon

Whitney:

as it gets here, My favorite is

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

The snare steps.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christian:

And the opening.

Christopher:

That is the opening.

Christian:

You talking about me?

Whitney:

Takes so long to get to the just tooty hold his foot.

Christian:

Oh, I'm gonna be holding

Whitney:

his 17 thousand miles. Lord, saving grace.

Christian:

Get to that. I forget that there's more song.

Christopher:

Oh yeah. There's more song.

Whitney:

Not gonna lie. Because it don't matter to be honest. Yeah. We just need more opportunity.

Christian:

There came a shaking. There came a knocking and a road. And all night Saturday, there was no activity. They thought Jesus really ain't dying. And all of sudden Shout my troubles roll.

Christian:

And the point where Jesus went down to hell and he got the And he came back and with all power in his hands.

Whitney:

Oh, welcome to the church kids show.

Christian:

So we did a I did a praise dance to that song. Oh.

Christopher:

Oh,

Whitney:

what? Brain my brain is

Christian:

so long. Baby, I do the intro. So I'm not gonna say a

Whitney:

name. Okay. Yeah. So I heard it right.

Christopher:

Oh, okay.

Christian:

She did the intro.

Whitney:

Oh, bless her heart. She was dancing something.

Christian:

I think

Christopher:

she Yeah. I was like, what? With your with your knees? I was like

Christian:

Oh, yeah. No. So I didn't even know. You wanna talk about pray so what's the name? It's a Kirk Franklin.

Christian:

The angels bow down? Hosanna.

Christopher:

Hosanna. Did you say

Christian:

Kirk Franklin? That is Kirk

Whitney:

Franklin. It is.

Christian:

Hosanna. Hosanna. So Hosanna Worship you. Is the song I danced to in a knee brace. So because of the way like our culottes, those huge pants that look like dresses

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christian:

You couldn't tell I had it on. But basically, I went up first because that allowed me to be on the stage and they could run-in. So they helped me get on the stage Mhmm. And I did the let me hear you make some holy ghost crazy do. I did that part and then they ran out Right.

Christian:

When the music dropped.

Christopher:

Yeah. I

Christian:

know. Which allowed me to dance but like I basically had a stationary like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were I was able they they worked it out for me.

Christian:

Shout out to Stephanie. She did that. Yeah.

Whitney:

She did

Christopher:

praise dancing. That's pretty cool.

Christian:

Oh, yeah. I did

Christopher:

it for

Christian:

a little while. I loved it.

Christopher:

That's awesome.

Christian:

I had so much I did praise dancing. I did mime.

Whitney:

Oh, I remember. Listen, as an adult who is also a theater kid, some of the church activities are hilarious in hindsight. Church

Christian:

pantomime, the most ridiculous shit.

Whitney:

Yeah. Okay. It's fun because pantomime is fun. Howsoever, it is the most externally ridiculous thing. So so those of you that like did not grow up in black church, those of you who grew up in black church, you might have some nostalgia memories as we have walked down memory lane.

Whitney:

For those of you who didn't grow up I

Christian:

love you.

Whitney:

I'm sure you tilted your head like a confused puppy. And what I'm here to say to you is that is appropriate.

Christian:

Yeah. But No. That shit was weird. Put on a full the full face. White full white face.

Christian:

Was in white

Christopher:

black eyes, black mouths.

Christian:

And black mouths making huge faces. Like if you remember K and K?

Christopher:

K and K Minds? K and K K That

Christian:

was that was who started it. They were the black guys that were on BET. Oh. That was who started it. Because they could like pop lock Yeah.

Christian:

While they mimed, they were everything. Oh my god. And so then they were miming

Whitney:

Jabberwockies for Jesus.

Christian:

They were the Jabberwockies for Jesus. Okay.

Christopher:

We loved it. Man, black people just do anything.

Whitney:

Black people literally, they be like, I need to express in the church.

Christopher:

I just saw somebody praise dancing with cymbals.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that.

Christopher:

Like he's a cymbal guy. Actually, he's on social media and he was like doing doing

Whitney:

Which ain't nothing but some band major like drum drum major shit.

Christopher:

Yeah. And he was

Christian:

just I mean, we we

Whitney:

we be like infusing with the Lord.

Christopher:

I mean Right.

Whitney:

It looks I'm sorry. Black pantomimes in church looks preposterous. And it it listen, very amusing. If it touched you, it touched you.

Christian:

I love that. I mean, it's wait. So the the song that I remembered specifically doing was Don't Cry, which is another Why do you cry? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

He has risen. That one. We cried every time we did it. We all because my sister But no.

Whitney:

I was like, it gets very emotional.

Christian:

Wait. My my sister was dancing. My sister did that one with us. Got you. And I'm we all Did

Christopher:

you crack

Whitney:

or does he die?

Christian:

Who who well, he's not dead is the point. Yes. That's the you know that He died, dude.

Christopher:

I saw the suffering. I wanted to can I can I again, can I have

Whitney:

Right? Let me have my emotions. Right.

Christian:

Can I have a you better bring it back?

Whitney:

Can you a human emotion? The answer is no.

Christian:

The answer is no.

Christopher:

Because he's alive.

Whitney:

He's happy, bitch. But listen, it was a present.

Christian:

It was a present. Let me because I thought he was dead.

Whitney:

He seemed very dead for three days.

Christian:

I mean, we put him in a tomb and wrapped his ass up.

Whitney:

And put a stone in front so he couldn't come out. Y'all put

Christopher:

And sealed it. Three

Whitney:

ends. They sealed that shit up. I signed up.

Christian:

Why would I why would I not cry?

Whitney:

That would be weird. Like I'm literally here grieving. Y'all gonna tell me he not dead. Last time I seen him he was. Right.

Whitney:

This is new

Christopher:

information What what don't you mean?

Christian:

Wait. Me transition Take

Christopher:

me to him.

Whitney:

Right.

Christopher:

To the king.

Christian:

Where you at?

Whitney:

And then now I see he not then I'm like, oh shit.

Christian:

Did somebody steal my Jesus? No. I'm confused.

Whitney:

I'm worried. Still emotions to break.

Christopher:

Yeah. And I see it. Yeah. Some people saw it was like, he's a ghost.

Whitney:

I thought they thought somebody stole his body.

Christian:

That was

Christopher:

the first Somebody stole his body.

Christian:

Oh, and then by the time he showed up, Woody showed up,

Whitney:

they think he's just like, no, stick your finger in my hand.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

Magic tricks. Through

Christopher:

the road that's closed and they thought he was a ghost.

Christian:

I mean, that's ghostish behavior right there. I mean You gonna show up in a room with closed doors and windows?

Whitney:

Hey, y'all. That's ghostish. Check out this stigmata. Go ahead. Test me out.

Christopher:

Now we're reverend.

Christian:

How you like, man?

Whitney:

That's that's literally what they said.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Was like that that shit was not Did he tell Thomas to stick his finger put up on?

Christopher:

Won't

Christian:

believe until I stick my finger in his side. That's what Thomas said.

Whitney:

And Tom, he was like bet. Here you go. Right. Dig around nigga. Nigga that is my spleen.

Christian:

I never really thought about the logic of that. Like there's a hole there. So it's There's a it's not leaking.

Whitney:

There's a hole. There's a hole inside

Christian:

of it. Because I can't imagine Thomas is like, yeah, let stick my hole in that my finger in that bloody ass hole. I'm sure

Christopher:

the blood Yeah. Cauterized.

Whitney:

Cauter okay. Yeah. All of that. Sure. Because you know, he had been dead.

Christopher:

He had been dead but previously The resurrection process cauterized the womb.

Whitney:

Zombie. He's the first zombie. Oh. Damn.

Christian:

But he was a good zombie. And it was thriller.

Christopher:

He's a zombie who heals.

Whitney:

Healing zombie. See, y'all out here scared of zombies and some of them healing.

Christopher:

That's my favorite.

Christian:

Reading about a book about necromancy and the interesting things that you can do with real life things.

Whitney:

What's crazy is that for some reason that made me very hungry. Talking about necromancy? I don't know but I got very hungry in that moment. Maybe it was two separate thoughts but

Christian:

maybe I

Whitney:

just wanna pick them on there. They were just simultaneous. I'd be missing body cues, so I must be starving.

Christian:

I'm so sorry. You know what? We started this off talking about tacos, so you probably is home.

Whitney:

It's time. It's taco time. Okay.

Christian:

Taco. Taco. Taco. Taco.

Christopher:

But yeah. So I will bring this home.

Christian:

I know. I A path

Whitney:

towards emotional honesty. There we go.

Christopher:

There we go.

Whitney:

So how can with the different pressures, right Yeah. To be stoic, to be and like, can I Yes? Can I just plug a stoic for a minute? Stoicism gets a bad rap.

Christian:

Okay.

Whitney:

I think stoicism have a

Christopher:

coworker who's going through that phrase.

Whitney:

You know, like, stoicism, people, like, think of it as, oh, stiff upper lip. Like, you don't show emotion blah blah blah. I I actually listen. I had to do a little because I was like, no, this doesn't feel right. And so I had to give me a little definition Yep.

Whitney:

As it pertains to emotional expression. So stoicism, as it pertains to emotional expression, emphasizes maintaining inner tranquility by managing responses rather than suppressing emotions altogether.

Christopher:

That's

Whitney:

It encourages individuals to acknowledge their feelings but not be ruled by them, focusing instead on rational thought, virtue, and acceptance of what is beyond their control. Stoics aim to cultivate resilience by practicing mindfulness, reframing challenges, and responding to emotions with wisdom rather than impulsivity.

Christian:

Yes. Wow.

Whitney:

And what that has been distilled down to mean is like, it's often that suppression. Right. Right? Like, if people define their suppression as stoicism, but that's not what stoicism is. Right?

Whitney:

And so and while I won't I'm not gonna say that rationality is the only way to handle a

Christian:

They gave you a list.

Whitney:

It did. But all through the filter of rationality. But, like, sometimes sometimes it's safe to be irrational because irrational shit has happened and, like,

Christian:

if it requires a times and whatnot.

Whitney:

And I will also put in a plug that, like, this the need for stoicism. Right? So the idea is is that you're calm externally. You're doing the work internally even when people frame it as suppression. Right?

Whitney:

The the overarching thing is we want you calm externally.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Right. That's not always appropriate. No. No. That is not always appropriate.

Whitney:

Sometimes you and that's very European coded. I was about to say.

Christian:

You know? That feels in that in that feels incredibly colonial.

Whitney:

It is. Whereas so many indigenous cultures are exuberant, incredibly expressive. Right? Yeah. That's also part of somatizing is expressing it and getting it out.

Christopher:

Right. Dancing it out. It's it's funny because whites, especially in the spiritualist, are just now turning the corner trying to understand the physicality of the spiritual.

Whitney:

But they're still really This

Christopher:

is

Whitney:

They're

Christopher:

still feels good.

Whitney:

Rationalizing it when certain things cannot be understood with ration alone. Yeah. That is one type of validation. It is not the only thing. Oh, don't get

Christopher:

started. Don't.

Whitney:

Because as we as we work towards decolonizing therapeutic practices, I am

Christian:

You gotta decolonize every goddamn

Whitney:

You have to decolonize and deconstruct every fucking thing. And if you haven't started already, baby, I encourage you pick one.

Christian:

Pick pick something something.

Whitney:

Pick something. But all that to say, stoicism as it's often colloquial colloquially used is not what it actually is. Correct. So not to say that everybody needs to be stoic because I don't think that's true. Right?

Christopher:

No. But if

Whitney:

a person is stoic and they are not suppressing, then they are managing and processing their own emotions. Mhmm. There's nothing wrong with that.

Christopher:

Mhmm. Yeah. No. That's that's very true. I have a like I said, I have a coworker, friend.

Christopher:

I don't know if he's listening or not, but I don't know if he's listening or not. But, I have his friend that he's just recently, you know, just talked to me about stoicism Mhmm. And his interest and his drawnness to it. And I love it for him because it is his way of grappling with the experiences that he had in his own life.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah. And that's valid.

Christopher:

I don't wanna delve into it, but it was it was a lot. And I I've even felt for him because of the the amount of loss and the the many the the times he's felt at times in his life that he's had to start over

Whitney:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

Or find his sense of self. And so for me, whatever it takes for you to, like, stay on this side and, like, work out your soul development and and not, like, check out prematurely

Whitney:

Yeah. Physically Absolutely.

Christopher:

I'm here for it. Yeah. I've had to do it.

Whitney:

Absolutely.

Christopher:

And now that you're hearing that definition of stoicism, it was like, yeah. Yeah. That that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher:

But like that's and what I've called dissociative in terms of what I do, I think it was also that. Yeah. Mean goes as and whereas like, you know, I can't dwell in this emotion for long. So either I work this out or find a way to produce it or find a way to prioritize something different.

Whitney:

Which I don't know is necessarily the stoicism that I was reading about. Gotcha. Because that that is still dissociation. And stoicism and dissociation are not necessarily they don't have to go together.

Christopher:

Right. They don't.

Whitney:

Right? Like Yeah. Stoicism is actually about facing it head on within yourself and not externalizing or pivoting to something else.

Christopher:

Gotcha. So let me go a little bit deeper into what I'm trying to say. Yeah. So when I say so for for example, 2016, we talked about it a couple episodes or whatever. I was angry.

Christopher:

Mhmm. And I had to wrestle with, okay, why am I angry?

Christian:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Christopher:

Is this a good emotion to have? And what can I do? Yeah. Like, is this a good emotion to have? What can I do with it?

Christian:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

What can I control? And and while, yes, that is what's going on over there, but what can I do to be a part of the solution instead of feeling powerless and and and staying in this angry state where I don't have control of anything that I'm doing?

Whitney:

It sounds like you dubbed anger not a good emotion.

Christopher:

At least for that. Because usually with anger, you know, you could do something with it. I didn't I don't label anger as a bad emotion outright.

Whitney:

Right. But no, in that scenario

Christopher:

In that scenario called it bad. Right. Right. It I called it yeah. I called it not useful.

Whitney:

Got you.

Christopher:

Because I was angry about something that I couldn't necessarily change.

Whitney:

The therapist in me has questions. Okay. Because then I'm just gonna say it because it's gonna be helpful. So Yeah. If it's there, it's useful.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Yeah. If it's there, it's useful. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't useful.

Christian:

And I was thinking that because that was that's something that my therapist has been getting with me. Yeah. Just talking about this. Talking about, you know, you when you said it it didn't feel useful. Right?

Christopher:

Well, it didn't use it didn't feel useful for me to stay there and not channel it towards something.

Christian:

Right.

Christopher:

Where it could where I could actually

Christian:

No, I hear you. There's a and I the way I think about it is like, there's a certain amount there's a certain amount of an emotion that allows you to be functional. Mhmm. You know? And so I've I'm wondering if for you, you mean like, you were so angry that you couldn't function.

Christian:

Is that what you mean?

Christopher:

Right. Yeah. It was it was affecting me. I felt like physiologically. Yeah.

Christopher:

Where I was like, I can't

Whitney:

It's an emotion.

Christopher:

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. It was but in a way that I felt like, man, like, I'm not thinking clearly.

Christopher:

This is not where I wanna be. Yeah. And what can I do to what can I do about the situation that I'm angry about such that I cannot be in this space where I can think clearly, where I can have some direction for my life and more purpose beyond, oh, I'm angry about this? And I just stay angry and like nothing gets done.

Christian:

Yeah. So like when we're talking about removing some of those masks, sometimes you just gotta let them go. And like recognize the fact that, hey, if you feel in resistance to letting something go, you might need to what's that about?

Whitney:

Yeah. Doesn't matter reflection.

Christian:

This is a this is a story. Why do I feel that? What what what do I think about this store beyond just that it has things that I need?

Christopher:

Yep. Be vulnerable and honest with yourself.

Whitney:

Yeah. And and question. Right? Like, think inactivity, if you will. If y'all do y'all like journaling activities?

Whitney:

Some of you do. I would say do this. This is something that I have done before is like write down your roles and identities. Right? Like because the thing is is we not only become over identified with like things, we become over identified with roles.

Whitney:

The issue is not the thing or the role. The issue is the over identification. Right. And so in dressing the over identification, you need to know what you identify with an ass. And so I would encourage you all just to take a moment and write out that shit.

Whitney:

Right? You are a worker.

Christian:

You are I

Whitney:

love Starbucks. I love right? Like, I am a I'm an eldest daughter. That is one of my roles. We detach from that as needed.

Whitney:

Girl, you know? Right. Like, write down all the shit that makes you feel like you. Right?

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And then just take some time and sit with it. Like I'm not telling you to go through and like pop all the rubber bands that hold you together.

Christian:

Oh, okay. Sorry. Get that.

Whitney:

That's fair. I could finish sentences. That feels important. But like just be a awareness is the first step.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

So becoming and even like that list doesn't have to be static. Right? As things pop up Right. You can add to that list and be like, oh, I think I might have put this as part of my identity too. Like bad bitch, that is a part of my

Christian:

identity. Yeah.

Whitney:

And on the days in which I look bummy, it is hard to release the identity of bad bitch when I'm not presenting as such even though I know I'm intrinsically I am always a bad bitch. You know, and so like, you you make adjustments to like, what am I holding? And is is holding on to this actually causing me more issue than releasing.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Yeah. So that's that's all. I it's just a fun little it's not that fun, but it's a little exercise that you can do. I will say one of the things that was one of the reasons I think I told you all that why like I cut my hair is that I realized I was like had been big hair Whitney for so long.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And granted my hair was less big due to health issues and different fighting COVID multiple times and I lost a lot of hair. And I was still holding on to like being long hair, big haired Whitney and I was like, cut it.

Christian:

You need to cut it. Who are you if you if

Whitney:

you don't have the hair? Turns out I still have hair. That's crazy. And it's I'm still a

Christian:

bitch. Look at that. It's amazing and beautiful. Like, it looks even cooler

Whitney:

and I don't even have to try it. I can't even throw it in a bun. I mean, I can but the bun looks crazy y'all. But like, it's just I don't really have bad hair days.

Christian:

Ta da. It's amazing. Sometimes what you see can do for you.

Whitney:

Releasing. Sometimes you get the thing that you actually need and like at the end of the day, I'm not my hair so it can do whatever I'm not my hair. It wants to do. And that's just the one example. But a lot of these identities.

Whitney:

Right? Like, I'm a liberal. White people love that shit. I would hey, I would question y'all to define that. Define.

Christopher:

Define. In technical term, we're all liberal because we in this society, in a neoliberal society.

Whitney:

Well, that's right.

Christopher:

They don't define it like that.

Christian:

They don't. No. They do not.

Whitney:

They don't. But like I would you know what I'm saying? Just pay attention to the things you're identified with. Right. And in what ways is it blocking you from your own humanity and other people's?

Christian:

Would like to add to that. When you're looking at it and reflecting on it, don't just write down like a word, like eldest daughter.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

Yeah. Maybe write down what that means to you. Mhmm. Because like she oh, the word liberal. The word conservative.

Christian:

Yeah. What do you think that means? Or even the word Christian. Right? Yeah.

Christian:

Yes. There are a lot of

Christopher:

things Evaluate.

Christian:

There are a lot of words that we have ascribed certain meaning to. And sometimes when you dig into not just what you are assigning to it, but I mean, check the dictionary just out of curiosity. Dictionary is not always how we currently use words.

Whitney:

Well, and I don't think I don't necessarily think that's necessary. This is a private practice.

Christian:

Well, I I I mean,

Whitney:

make sure you're using your word, like, out Right. Externally using words.

Christopher:

What does it mean to you?

Whitney:

Yes. And I think that matters most.

Christian:

Well,

Christopher:

How have you been taught to think it means Yeah. And what could it mean Correct. Now?

Christian:

I I I guess I I say this because sometimes, like you just did with stoic Mhmm. There are words that in practice Mhmm. We use a specific way. And so, yes, it means that to you. Yeah.

Christian:

But if you look at I was like, oh, wait. It's not just suppressing shit? Oh. Yeah. Interesting.

Christian:

You know? No.

Whitney:

That's what I say. It's important to know what words mean. Right. But at the end of the day, if you're the person writing it, like Yeah. Yes, write I think that is a helpful addition.

Whitney:

Like, write out what you mean by it, but not for the purposes of aligning your meaning to the meaning.

Christian:

Oh, no. No. No. No. Not I guess I didn't mean aligning, but it's just another another step on the path to, like, awareness.

Whitney:

Yes.

Christian:

Here's why. Here's one reason because sometimes the words we use, we don't realize they don't mean to other people what they mean

Whitney:

to That's a

Christopher:

word use. I don't think it means I

Whitney:

don't what you think it means what you think it means.

Christopher:

Saying that word.

Christian:

Right? And so sometimes that can be helpful. Mhmm. For instance, if you're in mixed company and you say, I am an x and people are like, ugh. Or they give you like the see the Oil.

Christian:

Yeah. Pupils grow or people back up. And it's like, why would you behave that way? And it's like, ah, didn't mean what I what it means to me doesn't mean that to you. I didn't I wasn't aware, you

Whitney:

know. Yeah. So, you know Which is why conversation is awesome.

Christian:

Oh my gosh. Go outside.

Whitney:

Oh, maybe don't cling so tightly to labels. Like, it's okay to have them. Don't cling.

Christopher:

And I think that's one of just to even circle back to what we were talking about before, just how your over identification with roles and your ideas Yes. Your narratives can lead to the dehumanization of the self Absolutely. And the others. And in so doing, we end up calling the things that are good about us evil.

Christian:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

And and end up destroying the negative potential and the evil things that we do or the bad habits we do, and we label them as good

Whitney:

Yeah. And productive.

Christopher:

Yeah. There becomes a role reversal when we live in service to ideas that we do not identify with.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christopher:

Like, when we really take in a stack, oh, I don't really do that shit.

Christian:

I don't really think that. Right. Really believe that.

Christopher:

I don't really believe that. I don't embody it. I may believe it. I may think it, but I don't embody it.

Christian:

Two different things.

Christopher:

There's a lot of peep Yep. Church examples. There's a lot of things that people assert to or assert themselves or believe in, but they do not embody.

Christian:

No. Oh, so much. And So so much.

Christopher:

You have to get to the grips to how you embody shit to get to the grips of what you honestly really believe

Whitney:

That's real.

Christopher:

Yeah. And invest accordingly.

Whitney:

Yeah. Or work to Or adjust the belief. Or it Or divest.

Christopher:

Yes. Right. If it's an if it's an appropriate belief to have and understand that you are not embodied in them, then fine. Yeah. But if it's a toxic belief and you've seen that how toxic it is when you communicate it to others, okay, maybe I need not to hold on to that.

Christopher:

Yeah. Because I've now evaluated the doctrine and that don't hold up to snuff. That don't meet real life.

Whitney:

Exactly. You know? Yeah. I think that's great. I think also the best way to assess your what you actually believe is to assess your behaviors.

Whitney:

Mhmm. Because you will act in alignment with what you actually believe and not what you want to believe. Right.

Christian:

Or not what people would have tried to convince you of. That Yeah. Because those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still. Yeah. Just because somebody told you that being a racist was bad doesn't mean you're not one.

Whitney:

That far.

Christopher:

Not all racists were hoods.

Christian:

Most of them don't.

Whitney:

And that's always been true. That's not just true now. That has always been true.

Christian:

Please. Just go look at a picture of Little Rock 9. Promise. Those niggas didn't have on any hoods.

Christopher:

Out.

Christian:

They whole ass face in that camera.

Whitney:

They did. Shouting at children.

Christian:

Screaming and spitting at children. Don't you? Don't don't you feel real smart?

Whitney:

Yeah. But I think that's this we've we've talked about a lot. We did. We ran

Christian:

we ran in And

Christopher:

then we aborted mission and went

Whitney:

We made a So many days.

Christian:

We made a round. We made a round.

Whitney:

It was it was too many clouds. We couldn't land yet.

Christopher:

Yeah. Visibility was low.

Whitney:

Visibility was visibility. But I think we can. Now. I think we can. Mhmm.

Christian:

So here's what we'll say. Thank you for joining us

Whitney:

Thank you.

Christian:

On this journey to being vulnerable

Whitney:

and dropping the masks. Both individually and collectively.

Christian:

Mhmm. Indeed. If you want to share with us your journey, if you have thoughts that you'd like to share, please do so in the comments on whatever platform you're on and or on our social medias which are in the in the doodly doo. The doodly doo.

Whitney:

Doodly doo. Got a outro.

Christopher:

The show nuts.

Whitney:

And the show nuts. The show Show nuts. What's happening? We need tacos.

Christopher:

Show nuts.

Christian:

We need tacos. Tacos. See? We need tacos. It's all

Whitney:

bad. It's all bad.

Christian:

Show notes and tacos, guys. We'll see you next week. Yeah.

Christopher:

I'm hunkled too. I just haven't been saying nothing.

Christian:

Yeah. All I

Whitney:

had was this munchie.

Christian:

That's it? I'm the only I

Whitney:

said that at the beginning.

Christian:

I got some nuts. Who's dying? What should I

Christopher:

Show the nuts.

Whitney:

I've I've been slipping.

Christopher:

Show nuts. See, that's why I said it.

Christian:

Stop saying it.

Christopher:

That's why I said

Whitney:

Why do you yes. Why do you keep saying it? What is happening?

Christian:

I don't

Christopher:

I'm I'm a owner of period.

Whitney:

Period. That's funny.

Christian:

Thank you all for joining us. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye.

Christopher:

Hola.

Whitney:

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Uproot Project Podcast. We hope you found fresh perspective and continue to make space for real growth. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcast. You can follow us on social media at the uproot project podcast on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, or visit us at wwwtheuprootpodcast.com for more content. To contact us, feel free to drop us a line at hello@theuprootpodcast.com.

Whitney:

Until next time, keep living fully, learning openly, and loving deeply. We'll see you soon.

Creators and Guests

Christian Barnes
Host
Christian Barnes
Christian Barnes is an avid reader and spiritual seeker on a journey of excavating and rebuilding the tenets of her faith one belief at a time. She is a proud mom and wife who believes in the power of connection and creativity. She cherishes the moments spent with friends and family, sharing food, laughter, and love. When she doesn’t have her nose in a book, you can find her painting her nails or watching football.
Website Link
Christopher Barnes
Host
Christopher Barnes
Chris Barnes is a pastor, theologian, and mystic leading The Tree Community, a progressive Christian space in Houston, TX. He is dedicated to creating inclusive environments that encourage people to live fully, learn openly, and love deeply. With over two decades of ministry and church experience, Chris helps individuals deconstruct toxic beliefs, relearn truths about God, and grow into their full potential. Through The UProot Project Podcast, he explores faith, mental health, and spirituality in a pluralistic world. His approach emphasizes grace, presence, and intentionality, guiding others toward authentic transformation and a deeper connection with the divine.
Website Link
Whitney Weathersby
Host
Whitney Weathersby
Whitney is a very Black, queer, neurodivergent, recovering church kid and intuitive therapist who is all about deep conversations and disruptive cackles. She is the friend who will pull your card while making you laugh because while healing is hard work, it never gave stuffy. Known for what her friends have dubbed 'Whitney-isms,' you can count on her to unwittingly drop a gem that will shake things up – and to immediately forget what she said. A student of Black feminism, womanism, and decolonial thought, her perspectives are grounded in the liberation of all people—collectively and individually. Whitney’s work centers the experiences of marginalized folks, amplifying often silenced voices, and holding space for the messy, nonlinear path to self-actualization. Whether in therapy sessions, on the podcast, or in everyday conversations, she brings a mix of radical honesty, irreverent humor, and a deep sense of care, leaving people feeling both seen and challenged to grow.