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Tough Talks Made Easier: Mindful Communication, Vulnerability, and Main Character Energy
S2:E4

Tough Talks Made Easier: Mindful Communication, Vulnerability, and Main Character Energy

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Christian:

Welcome to the Uproot Project podcast, where we dig deep to uncover and dismantle toxic beliefs about God, ourselves, and each other. Our goal is to replant new insights in the fertile soil of wisdom and love, fostering personal growth and transformation. Join us as we explore new ways of thinking and living in a world of complexity and diversity.

Whitney:

And welcome back to

Whitney:

the Uproot Project podcast. Woo. Woo.

Whitney:

Woo. Woo. Hey, y'all. I am Whitney. She, her, and your hospitable hostess.

Whitney:

I don't know where I

Whitney:

got that from.

Christopher:

With the mostest.

Whitney:

Okay. Period. There you

Christian:

go. I'm Christian. She/her.

Christopher:

I am Christopher DeVon, Eugene Alexander Barnes. Pronouns he, him, and his.

Whitney:

What about your privacy, brother? Wow. That's a lot of data. You just gave up freely to

Christopher:

church. They already got my data!

Whitney:

On the ticket it

Christopher:

On the tick on the clock app.

Christian:

So before we oh, no. Before we get going.

Whitney:

Sorry, y'all. Let's hop into this mindfulness moment so we can reground ourselves. We can ground for having these difficult conversations. So if you will, if you are able to,

Christian:

close your eyes. If you are not listen.

Whitney:

Watch the traffic. Okay? Just mind your p's and q's on the road. But if you're able to and you feel safe, you're somewhere where you feel safe, close your eyes.

Christian:

And let's just take a moment to settle in. Take a couple of deep breaths.

Whitney:

Breathing feels so nice.

Christian:

Another intentional deep breath, please.

Whitney:

And if you're sitting, let your feet rest firmly on the ground. Feel the earth beneath you.

Christian:

And then give me one slow and steady breath through your nose. Hold it at the top, and then do a slow exhale through your mouth. Now I want you to bring

Whitney:

to mind a recent or an upcoming difficult conversation, and I want you to see it like a scene in front of you. Notice how thinking about it feels in your body.

Christian:

Is there tightness? Is there warmth? Maybe a little vibration? Maybe there's stillness? Whatever it is, just acknowledge it.

Christian:

Be with it. No judgment. Just sit with it. And as you take your next deep breath, imagine on the inhale that you're drawing in clarity, like a clear light that just fills your chest. So take that inhale, and as you exhale, release any tension, any self doubt.

Christian:

Just let it flow out of

Whitney:

you and breathe all the way out so you

Christian:

can let it go. Now ask yourself, what is the truth I want to honor in this conversation? And take a minute, pause, and let the answer come to you without forcing it. What is the truth I want to honor in this conversation? And when it comes forth, then ask, how can I approach this truth with both honesty and kindness?

Christian:

Okay. We're gonna take one last deep breath in together, breathing in courage. And as you exhale, imagine grounding yourself in calmness all throughout your body. And when you're ready, open your eyes, lift your gaze, feeling steadier and a bit more present. K, y'all.

Christian:

Let's hop into it.

Christopher:

Alright. I was gonna say one of the things that shocked me when you asked that question, what is the truth that you want to honor Mhmm.

Christopher:

In

Christopher:

this conversation? The immediate thought was me. I'm the truth. Mhmm. I want to honor.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

And I

Christopher:

was just like, that's wild.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

Yeah. I love

Whitney:

that. I actually really love that. I think for me, because I do have a difficult conversation coming up, the truth that came up for me was everyone's humanity.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Which is which is tough when you feel like you've been wronged.

Christopher:

Yeah. You know? Mhmm.

Whitney:

And it's like, how do I acknowledge, especially somebody you love. Right?

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Who you feel like has wronged you. How do I maintain everybody's humanity with the things I say and the way that I say it?

Christopher:

Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah.

Christian:

Tough. Yeah. Very But

Whitney:

it's it's been something I've

Christian:

been mulling over for, like, the last

Whitney:

two days. Like, how do I and because hashtag neurodivergent, I gotta rehearse this conversation. Right?

Christopher:

You do. Yeah.

Whitney:

Like, I have to rehearse what I'm gonna say, and it's changed so much in forty eight hours. It's gotten shorter.

Christopher:

Praise god.

Whitney:

Yeah. It's gotten shorter. Because I'm like, what's what's the core? Because, like, yeah, you could list it.

Christian:

Like, there is

Whitney:

a list. There is a

Christian:

list because I'm also a Libra and I keep receipts.

Christopher:

Alright. People get lost in lists. But yeah.

Christian:

Baby, I keep a receipt. Okay?

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christian:

But but at the end of the day, like, I don't want it.

Whitney:

I don't want you to feel disregarded. I don't want you to feel unloved.

Christian:

Right. But like a boundary absolutely has to be drawn. And how do I do that in the most loving way possible that maintains not only your humanity, but honestly, because of this situation, mine. Right. Like, both of them have to walk away intact.

Whitney:

So crazy. I'm tired of being an adult. Carry on.

Christian:

Just I'm

Christopher:

so, like,

Whitney:

I really could use an adult sabbatical. Like, where is the adult playground where you're just, like, supported and, like, nutritious meals are made because you're an adult and you can't live off of Hot Cheetos and, like, Doctor Pepper anymore? And I just or in my case, vanilla Coke that was Gonna bring it to Santa

Christopher:

Cruz. Yeah.

Whitney:

I don't know if the Sanitarians were the place.

Christian:

No. No. No. So, like, the kind that rich white people got to go to.

Whitney:

You know? Okay.

Christian:

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, yep. A day by the sea for my consumption.

Whitney:

It wasn't even a day. It would be like some time.

Christian:

A month. Yes. A quarter. Like, you know, it's like it's like I need to spend at least it. I think those Need to get some fresh Regency.

Christian:

Mhmm. Not necessarily Regency, but maybe Regency novels where it's like a woman is like, oh, she's got the hysteria. We'll send her the sanitarium by the sea for a fortnight. You know? That kind of energy.

Christian:

I could use a fortnight in

Whitney:

the South Of France. Mhmm.

Christian:

See what I'm saying? South Of France, Amalfi Coast. Is that the same place or that's Greece? Amalfi's Greece.

Christopher:

Yeah. It's all the same in the middle

Whitney:

of the night. Beautiful. Somewhere beautiful with watery breeze.

Christian:

Lovely weather. Summer breeze. It's close

Whitney:

to March. Sunny. Beach.

Christian:

You know? Or even,

Christopher:

like through the chest in my mind.

Christian:

Oh, I was wondering if you're gonna hit the last note. Okay. There we go. You got it.

Whitney:

Sorry. I

Christian:

am impressed. I did not think you could hit that.

Christopher:

I haven't listened to it since I was 13.

Christian:

It does nothing to do with your actual vocal cords. But okay.

Christopher:

Oh,

Christopher:

that's okay. Training for this very moment.

Christian:

So part

Whitney:

of being having tough conversations

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Yeah. Right? Is that there's two parts to this. There's gonna be the other person's part.

Christian:

Right?

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

You have zero control over. Zero control. Thank you. And there's your part. So in order

Christian:

focus there. But yes. Mhmm.

Whitney:

And so it's such a big thing to see yourself clearly and not only see your like, truly, not not the illusion Sam. Or delusion for some of you Right. Of who you are. Mhmm. But truly seeing yourself and taking accountability.

Whitney:

What are you bringing to this conversation? Mhmm. What assumptions have you made that led you to this point? Like, what assumptions are included? Right?

Christopher:

Because I

Whitney:

think we all like, that's that's human Of course. To make assumptions or, like, because we're constantly drawing lines from point a to point b.

Christopher:

It's just

Whitney:

like, right, we've got our webs.

Christian:

And I think one of the assumptions that I frequently make is, like, assumptions about why the other person is doing a thing or, like, how they got to choosing to do that thing

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

Based on how I would have got there.

Whitney:

Yeah. Right.

Christian:

Which is crazy. Right.

Christopher:

Yeah. And

Christian:

so it's like, oh, they did they did this because they're mad, or they did this because they're this, or they think that, or they don't care. Right? Because the only way I would do that is because I didn't care. Right? And so assuming that, like, whatever is my motivation to behave a certain way is also another person's motivation,

Whitney:

which is not. Right? No. We're all wired very differently.

Christian:

Assumption that you, a lot of times, start with.

Whitney:

This idea that, like and and I always say this, like, we're each the the main character in our story. Right? And so it's like when you watch a movie. Right? You follow the main character through through the whole thing.

Whitney:

You know their through line. But there are these supporting characters that kinda come in and out, and you don't know what's happening with them outside

Christian:

That's how we all are. Yeah.

Whitney:

Right? Right. And so, like, if you are your main character, if everybody's their own main character, then they have a full complete life that exists outside of any interaction.

Christopher:

And right.

Christian:

Of your Yes.

Christopher:

And this is and this is why when you have main character energy devoid of empathy, you have a lot of shit that goes on that's like that creates a very much fucking hell escape for everybody involved.

Whitney:

Well, see. And what is, like, what do you mean when

Christian:

you say main character energy?

Whitney:

Because I have main character energy, and I don't relate that relate to that at all.

Christopher:

When I say I say main character energy without empathy. So, like, that's that's, like, you, like, everybody without you.

Christian:

Is that what you're getting at?

Christopher:

Right. Right.

Whitney:

That's not main character energy

Christian:

because the main characters know that.

Whitney:

And, like, when you watch a movie.

Christopher:

Alright. You said everybody is operating with the main character framework. Right? Everybody's the main character story. And I'm saying, when you do that, when you have that, and you think that you, you know, when you look at only from your perspective without any level of empathy for the other person's Gotcha.

Christopher:

Perspectives. So maybe I used a term that means something else like man

Whitney:

I don't know.

Christopher:

I got you. But that's the point I'm trying to say. Yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah. When you are when you assume that, like, you are

Christian:

the main character in everybody's story.

Whitney:

Right? Like, when you assume you are the axis that everything revolves around.

Christian:

Without acknowledging that other people are their own axis. Right?

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

And should be.

Christian:

Right.

Whitney:

And should be. And so, like, the Mhmm. You whatever assumption you're gonna make, you don't have enough informate. That's it.

Christopher:

Right. You

Whitney:

don't have enough information to make the assumptions that we make. Yeah.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Right? And sometimes you do and sometimes you're right. Okay. Great. But, like, when you're not right

Christopher:

You'd be not right.

Whitney:

You'd be very not right. Right? And so so this is also one of the things what sorry. The air just heat

Whitney:

just came on.

Whitney:

I was very confused. But, like, this is one of the things that for me, even before, like, I go into a difficult conversation, I will ask questions and it gets off people's nerves sometimes. But I'm like, okay. So this happened. What what was going on on your end?

Christian:

Right? I mean, that's fast. That's a that is a relatively simple question to ask, but, like, I can see why it could make people upset.

Whitney:

Yeah. They Because

Christian:

it feels like it feels antagonistic. But for you, it's probably more of, like, an exploration of, like, explain to me what's happening over there. Yes. I know what's happening over here. Yes.

Christian:

And I I am perceiving this in a particular way, and I just wanna see if that's what's if this is actually what's happening.

Whitney:

Yeah. And and sometimes it flows in conversation. Right? Like, I am one to be, like, very much to be, like especially now on my vulnerability journey. But I'm very much one to be like, okay.

Whitney:

Can we, like, talk about the elephant in the room? Mhmm. Yeah. So, like, these things have happened, and this is how I perceived it. Right.

Whitney:

Like, what what was like, how did you Yeah. Perceive your actions? Did you? Right. Right?

Whitney:

And not and I think that the really tough thing is oftentimes, depending on who you're talking to, like all of my friends, I don't think that would be a

Whitney:

ring ring ring ring

Whitney:

ring I'm not gonna argue about this. I have

Whitney:

the best friends on the planet.

Whitney:

And so when I'm talking to people who are not the

Whitney:

in the friend group,

Whitney:

the best people on the planet. Right. Yeah. People can get defensive.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Because that's not a thing you hear. Right? And when you do, it can also come off in, like, an accusatory tone.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Like, in a, I wanna know so I can come back. And I'm like, no. I'm trying to gather information.

Christian:

"Explain to me your thought process!"

Whitney:

Well, because for me,

Whitney:

it's like, you you have absolutely pissed me off. Right? But I am pissed off based on the limited knowledge that I have. So I would actually like to expand my knowledge to determine whether or not I'm gonna be pissed off. Like, whether or

Whitney:

not I actually need to

Whitney:

be or if I'd like to jump to conclusions. Normally, I do this in the back Right. Right in my own head. It's like, okay, Whitney. You don't have all the information.

Christian:

Right.

Christopher:

I've I had that conversation too with a pastor friend of mine.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christian:

Yeah.

Christopher:

And white guy. And he made some decisions.

Whitney:

I love how you point that out. White man?

Christopher:

White man? Well, I mean

Christopher:

I mean

Whitney:

this is germane to the story. Yeah.

Christopher:

To the plot. So he made some decisions about how he wants people, you know, at the church to preach or whatever that really grated against my African American preaching sensibilities.

Whitney:

Period.

Christopher:

And say that. And and instead of me going with this narrative for, oh, he's been a fucking racist, you know, or he didn't like the way I preached it last time.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christopher:

You know, I'm feeling you know, I feel synced out. Like, I feel like all these rules are attacking me. And I just really just went to him. I said, hey. This is how I process.

Christopher:

And based on our preexisting relationship, I am almost sure this was not your intent. Yep. But I still feel the way that I feel. Mhmm. And the evidence is out there still leads to this particular conclusion.

Christopher:

So please give me something else

Christian:

to think.

Christian:

For

Christopher:

me to think about.

Whitney:

Walk me through your process.

Christopher:

Walk me through the process. Yeah. Because I've you know, I'm I'm trying to I am invested in this relationship to make sure this is amicable.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christopher:

Because you've shown care to me Mhmm. And I've shown care to you, and I do care about it enough to bring this to you. So Yeah. Walk me through what you what what what you were thinking when these rules were being

Christian:

Yeah.

Christopher:

Embraced and and disseminated.

Christian:

Absolutely. I mean, that sounds like you walked through the, like, the kind of the steps that Whitney was mentioning. Like, being aware that you have a narrative in your own head and then acknowledging that that is not necessarily true.

Whitney:

Correct.

Christian:

Why what you feel is valid

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

About the way that it affected you. The all the best if you wanna maintain a relationship Right. Which is kind of where we're Yeah.

Whitney:

That's the point. Why would you have a hard conversation if you didn't care?

Christian:

I guess we should lead with that. Yeah. If you don't care about maintaining the relationship, don't bother. Exactly.

Whitney:

Don't Let it go, Elsa.

Christian:

Don't waste your time. Don't waste your energy. But if you wanna maintain a relationship with somebody and they've harmed you, you know that there's been a rupture as we talked about in a previous episode and you want to repair it, you have to start with, I don't think you set out to hurt me. Yeah. Mhmm.

Christopher:

You

Christian:

have to start there. Because if you really think they set out to hurt you, that's a whole another ball of wax.

Whitney:

Well and that's actually a conversation ender. Yeah. Right? Like, if if I think your intention is to cause me harm, I have every right

Whitney:

to cut you off. Stop. Like, I don't have to like, it's I've

Whitney:

I've had that last year. Right? So I've talked a lot about, like, my whole job experience. But there was an experience where I shit was on paper. Right?

Whitney:

Like, it was very much writing is on the wall. You are lying on

Whitney:

me.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And you I don't it's I I have the proof that you were lying on into me. Yeah. And now I can decide I don't actually care

Christian:

what your intention is. Because for me,

Whitney:

there actually isn't a reason to repair this.

Christopher:

Right. Right.

Whitney:

I have no reason.

Whitney:

I baby, I won't work here no more. I don't have no reason. If I see you again in life, I don't. Right. That's So, like, well

Christopher:

There's no good intention about lying in in that in that space for you.

Whitney:

Exactly. And so when when I have never given you a reason to do so other than the fact that you don't wanna be confronted with yourself, You don't wanna be accountable. Mhmm. As a leader, you don't wanna be accountable. Well And as a fellow leader, I'm a hold you accountable.

Whitney:

Right.

Christian:

I'm

Christian:

a leave.

Whitney:

Period. And so, like, for me, there's there there's no point to that conversation. Right?

Christian:

Absolutely.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Because it's it's hey. I don't trust shit to come out your mouth. If you get to the point where you don't trust shit that comes out of a peep a person's mouth, stop hearing the shit that comes out of their mouth. Right. Stop talking to me.

Christopher:

You don't need to be loyalty. That's that that is exactly when my loyalty to you becomes challenged.

Whitney:

Yeah. It's done. It's been evaporated.

Christian:

Do not engage.

Christopher:

Do not engage.

Whitney:

And that's how it works for me. I don't have a whole lot of people that don't exist anymore. Just a handful. No. It's two.

Whitney:

And so that's a finger full. See.

Christian:

It could it'll fit in your hand. Keep going.

Whitney:

Yeah. But it's even smaller. You could fit it

Whitney:

Yeah. In two fingers.

Christian:

There you go.

Whitney:

One, two. This bitch, that nigga. And so Goddamn.

Christian:

But Period. Equal opportunity. Period. So

Christopher:

these fingers rated E for everybody

Christian:

wow

Whitney:

wait I'm I'm gay you can't just say that

Christopher:

I'm sorry

Christian:

I mean they not well

Christopher:

that's somebody in terms of the

Christian:

you took that on a different turn

Whitney:

because I'm a queer. But anyhoo but, like, when it's when you value relationships where this actually comes into play. So we are not talking about bullshit and party shit.

Christian:

No. No.

Whitney:

This is when it matters and if

Christian:

preserve your energy.

Whitney:

And if the relationship matters to you

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Then what that automatically implies is that you do need to know their intentionality because that's gonna that's gonna have an impact as well.

Christian:

Yes.

Whitney:

Right?

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

The same way you would want someone to investigate or learn is probably a better word.

Whitney:

Your intentionality is when

Whitney:

you've wronged them.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. Right? Instead of assuming that they know why you did or did not do a specific thing.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christian:

Yeah. So, like, that's the first step of, hey, investigate, be curious and sensitive about what it is that, like, started this. Take it like, acknowledge your own

Christian:

business and

Christian:

bias and what it is that you're thinking. Right? And then go forth, have the conversation. And I think and this is let me know if I'm wrong, but I feel like the more important a relationship feels

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

To me Mhmm. The more reluctant I tend to be

Whitney:

Absolutely.

Christian:

To have hard conversations. Right? Uh-huh.

Christian:

If it's somebody that I'm like, you know what? I could cut you off. I'm about to go over here and be like, did

Christian:

you do

Christian:

it like that? Oh, you did, Deuce. Did you mean like that that? Oh, you didn't? You could stay.

Christian:

Right? Like, the more likely I am to be like, I don't wanna know if you meant it like that. I really I want I'm just gonna choose to believe you didn't because if I ask and you did, oh my god.

Whitney:

If the risk is higher. Right? Like, that's a 100% true. You're not at all wrong or crazy. I think this is why, like, intimate relationships like, conflict and in intimate relationships is so hard.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christian:

Right?

Christopher:

It is.

Whitney:

Because it's you are deeply connected.

Christian:

Right.

Whitney:

And conflict can feel doesn't have to feel. But conflict can feel like it's challenging your connection.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Right? Especially once we, like, run off on our assumptions and our blah blah blah boss. Right? It can feel like, oh, shit. Our connection is at risk.

Whitney:

Like

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And it doesn't have to be. Yeah. Right? It it also makes conversations hard. Yeah.

Whitney:

Because even in hearing that other person's side,

Whitney:

they may not have considered you at all.

Christian:

Right.

Whitney:

And that's a hard thing to hear.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

But that's a true thing sometimes. It was just like, oh, bitch. I was just acting on impulse. Please don't call your partner's bitch. But, like,

Christian:

unless

Christian:

that's something y'all do. It was. You know what

Christopher:

I mean?

Whitney:

Like, it's cool.

Christian:

Sort

Christian:

that out between yourself.

Whitney:

I was like, I I use bitch very casually. But Mhmm. But, like, you know what I'm saying? It's it's I don't know what I'm saying. I forgot my thought.

Christian:

You were saying that it's scary because there's a higher risk. Mhmm.

Whitney:

Oh, because, like, they really could not have been considered.

Christian:

Oh, yes.

Whitney:

Yes. And that's a painful thought.

Christian:

Like It can be. Yeah.

Whitney:

To be like, oh, and now it feels like I don't matter to you.

Whitney:

Yeah. But, like, also, everybody's a main character in their own story. So maybe they didn't know that thing

Whitney:

mattered that

Whitney:

much to you. Yeah. Exactly. And so it's it's, again,

Whitney:

leaving space for for people's humanity.

Whitney:

Yeah. Leaving space. Because, like, we don't always get it right. And I have friends I have some friends that are some

Whitney:

of the because I have the

Whitney:

best group

Whitney:

of friends ever. Mhmm.

Whitney:

And I have one friend that I think about who is one of the most generous, beautiful, loving, just, amazing people. And also can do things in efforts to be all of these things that actually make shit hard sometimes. Like, it it can be hard to be like, here's the truth. Right? And it's like, that's never if they knew that, that's never their intention.

Christian:

Of course not.

Whitney:

Right?

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

But in the effort to be amazing,

Whitney:

we're telling them to

Whitney:

have the effort for, like, they're amazing. You know? But, like, in the effort to be amazing and be all things to all people, sometimes you leave people behind or you don't you miss the mark.

Christopher:

Right. You missed the mark. You dropped the ball.

Whitney:

Right.

Christopher:

You you don't live up to either yours or the expectations of what you're supposed to bring to the relationship.

Whitney:

It's gonna happen.

Christopher:

It is gonna happen.

Whitney:

You know what I mean?

Christian:

It's gonna happen. And it and

Whitney:

you will be on either side of it. And I think that is also an important thing when taking accountability is, like, consider how you would feel.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Right? If, like, if I have to have this hard conversation and I'm if I what if I'm on the the receiving? Somebody gotta have a hard conversation with me. People have had to have a hard conversation with me. Hashtag human.

Whitney:

But how, like, how would I feel? What's hey. What's the anxiety? Right? When somebody's like, hey.

Whitney:

Can we talk? Yes. But about

Whitney:

what? But, like, you gotta Yeah. Alright.

Whitney:

That's your preface. Gird your loins.

Christian:

Yeah. I mean, there's a and I I've been talking to my therapist. I told y'all y'all gonna hear so much about them. But, yeah, I've been talking to my therapist, like, about why it is difficult for me to have hard conversations. And one of the questions she asked me was, what is going to happen if you say x?

Christian:

Mhmm. What do you think is going to happen if you say x? Mhmm. Right? And, like, digging into what it is in my brain, in my psyche that, like, what is producing that fear?

Christian:

What narrative Mhmm. Causes me to think that this conversation is dangerous? Right? Mhmm. And, like, some of the things that have come up in the past is just one of them is just the general overarching fear of failure.

Christian:

Right? Yep. Anything that feels like failure, like not succeeding, not being perfect, not being whatever, all of those things are things that I was socialized to be afraid of. You don't want red marks on your on your score. You don't want anything less than an a.

Christian:

Yeah. You don't want to end up in hell because you just missed the mark. Right? Like, I mean, I mean, *Eye roll*

Whitney:

I was

Whitney:

there with you.

Christian:

Eye roll*

Christian:

Yep. But, like

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

The even though I don't intentionally subscribe to a lot of those narratives

Whitney:

in there

Christian:

anymore, those narratives, they they are

Christopher:

It just be bouncing

Christian:

You know, they

Whitney:

deeply rooted

Whitney:

is what

Whitney:

they are.

Christian:

They are people used to it was a big thing back in the day to be like, "Beyonce is using subliminal messaging." Bitch, you don't need Beyonce to subliminal message.

Christian:

Y'all have been planting so much stuff deep into everybody's psyche that it plays on repeat when nothing else is happening.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

In silence, that shit's going around. Yeah. Right. Round and around. Round and around.

Christian:

It's it keeps on playing. It's on it's on constant repeat.

Christopher:

Right. To the extent that you believe that a human that is involved in music and is making lots of money is a demon for whatever reason.

Christian:

Yeah. I mean,

Christopher:

for some version of that. Yeah. Dehumanize this woman. And that again, there are some things to do that we can have nuanced conversations about her billionaire status.

Christopher:

Yeah. And her behavior. Her behavior.

Whitney:

That would actually be more productive.

Christopher:

That would be more productive. But

Christian:

God. Forbid!

Christopher:

to categorize her as a demon because she said some lyrics or you don't have the capacity to understand figurative language.

Whitney:

Correct.

Christian:

You're slow.

Christopher:

Take your Bible literally and don't understand the figurative language in that fucking book.

Christian:

Oh, boy.

Christopher:

So

Christian:

But that

Christopher:

because that is the case.

Christian:

The amount of faith.

Christopher:

You don't have the capacity to have the kind of conversation to actually criticize this woman.

Christian:

But that's

Christian:

wild.

Whitney:

Like, that's crazy.

Christopher:

And we

Christian:

talked about where was I watching? I was watching something. Hit it. I was we were talking about something. I can't remember.

Christian:

But there was, like, the lack of faith you have in the job that you've done to convince people of the narrative that you teach. Right? I'm the I am the evangelical church. I have been teaching you a specific set of things for decades. Decades?

Christian:

Decades. And I am not convinced that I have done a good enough job to let you go out into the world and interact with whatever's out there and come back reaching the conclusion that I, like, that I wanted you to reach. Right?

Whitney:

Sounds like you don't trust your conclusion.

Christian:

I didn't equip you to make decisions.

Christian:

Yeah. I made the decisions and told you what they were. Mhmm. And so I have not equipped you to be functioning humans. I wanted you to be an automaton.

Christian:

I want you to be a robot.

Whitney:

But why didn't you equip? And I think that is

Whitney:

well, I'm always gonna ask why. One thing about Whitney, she gonna ask why. Right.

Whitney:

Probably super why.

Christian:

You were

Christian:

gonna- I thought you would come to a conclusion that didn't serve me.

Whitney:

That's it. Which means you don't trust the conclusion.

Christian:

No. Not to be enough.

Whitney:

And and to me, that also calls on

Whitney:

the question like, if we talk about religion, that calls on the question of your faith. And yet you want me to have big faith enough to move a mountain, but you clearly don't got it.

Christopher:

Right. You

Christian:

don't think that I could see

Christopher:

treat the you treat the truth that you peddle as, like, so fragile and delicate That's right. That it can be easily swept away like the chaff.

Christian:

The truth is rugged, nigga.

Christopher:

It's supposed to

Christian:

be got on work pants. The truth gets in the dirt and

Christopher:

the mud. Right.

Christian:

The truth does not to be need to be coddled like a fucking egg.

Christopher:

Right. So it it it would it would prompt a question to to to reevaluate the truth that you're supposed to be preaching.

Christian:

Is it true?

Christopher:

Is it true? Is it true enough?

Whitney:

Is it true enough?

Christopher:

To withstand time and and turn if if it is not, then we need to we need to reevaluate truth. This is why the spiritual values of spirit self examination and accountability, they're there. Yeah. Yeah. Because we all Paul talks about always examine yourselves Mhmm.

Christopher:

To see you are in the faith or see that you are of the faith. And of course, for his rhetorical goals, that means we we have made it to be the true within Christianity.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

But really, this is a deep thing that every human needs to do. We need to always be in a process of of examining and re examining and rethinking and rebuilding the narratives, especially when we see the fruit of our existing narratives and what that looks like and the implications of that and how that gets echoed out throughout the the cosmos as it were. And when you stop as a faith or as an institution, think that thinking that you don't need to do any more self examination, that we have the truth for all time, but all we need to do is just hold the line until Jesus come back.

Christian:

Hold the door.

Christopher:

That's all we got to do.

Whitney:

That sounds absurd.

Christopher:

We ain't gotta do nothing else but regurgitate and propagate the bullshit that was only relevant two thousand years ago.

Whitney:

Which is crazy.

Christopher:

When the earth was thought to be

Christopher:

flat.

Christian:

Uniquely relevant two thousand years ago. And 90

Christopher:

There were no planes then. We were people we are we are regurgitating thought people's thoughts about God that were living when there were no planes.

Whitney:

No TikTok.

Christopher:

No TikTok.

Christian:

No phones.

Christopher:

No phones.

Christian:

No phones at all. Let alone Right. No indoor plumbing.

Christopher:

No indoor plumb well, they had them with plumbing back then.

Christian:

Not like we got.

Christopher:

Not like we got. Not like we got. But Yeah. It was not what

Christopher:

it is.

Christopher:

It was a system. Yeah. But just but but I'm just saying there's there there are some things that are true about it, but there are some things that we have contextualized from that book that are that we have not carefully and keenly evaluate to see, oh, hold on.

Christian:

It's a syllable

Christopher:

We have

Christopher:

a more evolved consciousness about this particular issue.

Christian:

Uh-huh. Or the culture has shifted and we don't agree with this anymore.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Like Right. And I think that's what happened. They just decide to disagree with the culture instead of examining the relation between the two.

Christian:

How how did that work with slavery with y'all? How did that work out?

Whitney:

So far so great because we still have people who are imprisoned as slaves. So

Christian:

And fighting fires for free.

Whitney:

Yeah. Turns out.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

But they they, they hold on to it like a bad wig. And They do.

Christopher:

Crunchy ass wig. Sorry.

Whitney:

Your wig, dusty.

Christian:

Yeah. But I I've just finished the book, and it was talking about when you were saying, you know, like, something that was relevant two thousand years ago. And to which my first thought was, this is the longest game of telephone ever. Because even what we

Whitney:

have now Yes.

Christian:

What we have now isn't even what they had.

Christopher:

Exactly.

Christian:

Right? And so, like, you know, two thousand years ago, the New Testament did not exist. That was amalgamated over the time since then.

Christopher:

Right?

Christian:

They gathered up the pieces for the all they had was the beginning. They had the All

Christopher:

they had was

Whitney:

Old Testament.

Christopher:

All they had was Old Testament and and oral testimonies about

Christian:

Not written in the time frames that it is referencing. Right? These are all, like They

Whitney:

had letters from Paul. They was receiving letters.

Christian:

Right.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

And who wrote who actually wrote the letters? Didn't. A lot of them were very dubious. And a lot of

Christopher:

them Right.

Christian:

Like, if you if you leave the church for five minutes and go into any circle where they're actually studying shit, they'll tell you, like, this one didn't win written by all. This was written by so and so. We're pretty sure this one was written by so and so. We don't know who wrote that shit. Yeah.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

And so, like, there was a this is why I mentioned the book. So I was I was finishing this book called Sensual Faith. Can't remember the name of the author. She's a she's a preacher though. A black preacher.

Christian:

And she was talking about how there was a conversation about the different translations of the Bible. Mhmm.

Christian:

And, you

Christian:

know, like the inner is it the in the New American Standard Version is the one that people typically used to study. Is that right?

Christopher:

NRSV.

Christian:

NRSV. Thank you. New revised Standard Version. Yep.

Whitney:

My brain went through.

Christian:

So that's the one that people typically used to study because it's supposed to be academic circles. It's supposed to be

Christopher:

it's the most literal word for word translation.

Christian:

Is it word for word or thought for thought? NIV is the thought for thought. Right?

Christopher:

NIV is thought for thought. It's more of a dynamic equivalence.

Christian:

Okay. So so pause. That part's not as important. I don't want people to get distracted from what I'm

Christian:

talking

Christian:

about.

Whitney:

It's okay. I floated away a little bit.

Christian:

Yeah. I guess I saw it happen. Yeah. But

Christopher:

I actually words.

Christian:

Okay. So the the point was NRSV is supposed to be where I'm gonna use air quotes, the most accurate translation.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

Right? That that's the idea. When you're studying is supposed to be the most accurate translation. So in the book of Ruth

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

When they say she uncovered his feet and laid down, there is proof that the word foot is actually closer to penis. Like, that's what the that's what the word's supposed to be. She will give you She went and she got she got in his business and, like, nigga, I'm here for marry me. Yeah. Right?

Christian:

And, like, that's the point. That's supposed to be the idea.

Whitney:

Sense because that

Christopher:

was that make

Christian:

so much more sense.

Whitney:

Because who who gonna marry a bitch that crawl up like a cat?

Christian:

Right. On your feet. That's weird. Nah. You wanna get in, get in.

Whitney:

Right.

Christian:

Right? And so she I'm married this bitch.

Christopher:

She's my best.

Christopher:

This was a man in the bronze age. Where did you think was gonna motivate him

Christian:

To marry her?

Christopher:

Not motherfucking at my feet.

Whitney:

Right. No. It's not like Oh,

Christian:

oh, you you're you're at the third leg? Okay. Come on. That part. Right.

Christopher:

Oh, good.

Christian:

You could

Christopher:

rise me up. Oh, okay.

Christian:

You raised me up. Right. And so this guy at so somebody asked the people who were figuring out this translation. They were like, hey. Why did y'all translate?

Christian:

Like, we know we in this room who are translators, we humans who are translating this in we know that this word is closer to penis. Well, you can't say penis in the congregation. What the fuck?

Whitney:

Why not?

Christopher:

Penis. Why?

Whitney:

There's penises in the congregation.

Christian:

You I mean, if you wanna be euphemistic, you could say member, but I you you can still call it what it is and not say foot.

Whitney:

Mhmm. Foot is wild. Foot.

Christian:

You could say thigh. You could

Whitney:

at least get closer. Kickstand.

Christian:

You could say stomach. You could say anything in the vicinity of viscera to get you close because

Whitney:

they don't want to say or imply.

Christian:

They don't want to imply.

Christopher:

Yeah. They don't right. They don't want especially with their sensibilities about And

Christian:

and that's what I'm saying.

Christopher:

Sex and where playing and how does

Christian:

telephone.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

You can't even say that this was relevant two thousand years ago because they said penis.

Christopher:

Yeah. They had a more Something

Whitney:

very complicated.

Christopher:

They had a more evolved understanding.

Christian:

What Pubic. Pubic bone member, what they use the word for the anatomical part. Yeah. And the fact that two thousand years later, when we know we have language for these parts that we all share. Now that's good.

Christian:

We even have euphemisms we all share.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

So now And

Christian:

you can use any of them?

Whitney:

I feel like now I understand why people that come across super spiritual just feel fucking weird to me because they doing weird shit. They stole weird information.

Christopher:

Yeah. They are. They tell us

Whitney:

like the the women that, like, the the marriage girlies because there's, you know, the people

Christopher:

Oh, the

Christian:

trad wives.

Whitney:

Yeah. No. Not the trad wives. The girlies who trying to get married, the ones that be in the singles ministry.

Christian:

Uh-huh.

Whitney:

But they real holy. They be doing some of the strangest shit to catch a nigga.

Christopher:

They do. They do.

Whitney:

Well, all you gotta do

Whitney:

is uncover his penis, girl.

Christian:

Based on this fucked up game of telephone.

Christopher:

I mean, yeah.

Christopher:

I mean

Whitney:

That's

Whitney:

why you look weird, bitch.

Christopher:

And our

Whitney:

That's why

Whitney:

he's not interested.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

And if he is he's weird and probably a little gay.

Christian:

He could be. He's definitely weird, though.

Christopher:

He's definitely weird.

Whitney:

I

Whitney:

think he's a

Whitney:

little gay.

Christopher:

Abusive, extremely controlling.

Christian:

Or or he is like me, and he has some some really aggressive narratives.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christian:

And he has convinced himself of a lot of things, and he's gonna be untying himself out of knots if he does manage to marry you.

Whitney:

Probably a little gay.

Christian:

He might be.

Whitney:

You're a

Whitney:

little gay.

Christian:

Oh, I am. Like

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

But I mean, being in the church and being a little gay are not, like

Whitney:

No. Two different things. But I'm just saying.

Christian:

No. No. No. They they they meet in a way that causes you to go down a a path. No.

Christian:

I'm No.

Christopher:

No. I'm I'm

Whitney:

still gay in church. I know.

Christian:

They they cause you if you are a rule follower. I fought to I I point to myself. If you are a rule follower no. No. No.

Christian:

I No.

Whitney:

You are. Yeah.

Christian:

This is this is this is my core identity. Yes.

Whitney:

It's it's the

Whitney:

force is strong with this one.

Christian:

The force is strong. If you are a rule follower and a little gay

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

And you're like, I need to follow these rules.

Whitney:

Let me find this.

Christian:

The narrative that you'll utilize Mhmm. To make yourself conform is gonna have to be a you'll it's gonna be aggressive. Yeah. Because you'll do any means necessary.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

Right? Yeah. So, yeah, the combination of a little gay and committed to the rules Yeah. Aggressive narratives.

Whitney:

This is why people

Whitney:

die.

Christian:

Yes? To my right.

Whitney:

No. Really, quite frankly. And I'm not I'm not saying that flippantly.

Christian:

No. You know?

Christopher:

To my right. Like, Paul said, for this reason, many are weak and sickly among you.

Whitney:

No. Like

Christopher:

And many have

Christopher:

fallen asleep.

Whitney:

But, like, truly and weakness without a a value judgment. Right. Right? Like, you literally sucking the life out of people because you refuse to

Whitney:

Because as a an institution, you refuse to be vulnerable enough to have these conversations. You refuse to be accountable for the fact that you have taken the lives of many. Even outside of conquest, outside of crusades

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

But also there. But, like

Christian:

But just in the in the theology.

Whitney:

In being in relation to you, the way that you exist and the way that you show up.

Christopher:

And the fake apologies you give.

Whitney:

Right. You have taken so many lives

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Either by, like, truly death Yeah.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Or by, like, a death

Whitney:

of soul. Yeah. Burning

Christopher:

up that state. Religious fundamentalism, I butchered the shit out that word.

Whitney:

You I'm not gonna do it again. We accept

Christopher:

you. Religious fundamentalism. Fundamentalism.

Christian:

There it is.

Christopher:

Robs you of your agency, and it it it hijacks your your discernment.

Christian:

Mhmm. And Mhmm.

Christopher:

It it it does. It it it does those two things very well, and then causes you to externalize or outsource your spirituality and your discernment to the detriment of yourself and possibly others around you for sure. There's so many people when they've gotten their mind back after leaving evangelicalism say, I apologize for all things I said when I was 18.

Whitney:

I literally let me find it. There was a thing. So I had a I had a friend growing up. I was okay. Yeah.

Whitney:

I was real saved. Like, I did stupid shit sometimes, but, like, in earnest. Like, I truly was searching for God. Howsoever, I

Whitney:

might have been a little zealous.

Whitney:

My girl Did she hit me with the mic? Yes. Okay. I was zealous.

Christopher:

And

Whitney:

We but tell us without I think

Whitney:

I was less judgy, though. Oh, no.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

My my my little was a comment for myself. Oh. You you were definitely we were all in in the the groups we traveled in. We were zealous. But I I definitely I took up the mantle on the judgy bit.

Christian:

Yeah. The judgy bit, I embodied.

Whitney:

Yeah. And so and I think sorry. I thought I was gonna say it. I just remembered that friend in particular got off of oh, wait. Here it is.

Christian:

Oh, we found it?

Whitney:

Yep. It just says Instagram, user now because she got off of Instagram. But I sent her a thing. Let me scroll. And because we were we were both, like, co presidents Mhmm.

Whitney:

Of the Christian Student Union. And, like, I literally, at some point in high school, was in church. Was it five days a week? Mhmm.

Whitney:

Only days I was off were Sunday. Nope. It's not Sunday.

Whitney:

Saturday

Christian:

Yeah. And Monday.

Whitney:

The Monday?

Christian:

Yeah. Monday is like the universal off from church day.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. So Monday and Saturday were only two days. I wasn't in some church, some youth group, some bible study, some something. Yeah. Right?

Whitney:

So very zealous. It's it's, like, and she was with

Whitney:

me, and we were, you know, trying

Whitney:

to figure out the balance between, like, being adolescents and, like, theater kids. Because if y'all know anything about theater kids, they go wild. So, like, how do we have this, like, really exuberant part of our personality that also somehow exists within this context. Right? Yeah.

Whitney:

And when we were just we were just really saved, and it was bad. Oh, it's so It was so bad. And so

Christopher:

saved it. I don't remember that.

Whitney:

It was gross. And and, oh, where is it? It's missing. But I was just like I I sent her I think I saw it on Instagram, and it was just like, I wanna apologize for everything my I said in my evangelical youth or something like that. Mhmm.

Whitney:

And she was like, girl. Or maybe she posted it. And I reacted to it. And it was that's why I can't see it. It's why she posted it.

Whitney:

Yeah. And I'm just like, no. That we I am so glad

Christian:

I wasn't any farther into the Internet when I was younger because dear God help us.

Christopher:

Because the way these Christian apologists

Christopher:

be out here like this.

Christian:

I don't think I could erase, like

Whitney:

Did we have

Whitney:

that much Internet while we were younger?

Christian:

Not not in high school.

Christopher:

Not

Christian:

in high school. Not in college.

Whitney:

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Christian:

I started to get, like In the next You know, I got on Facebooking. I got on Facebook in college.

Christopher:

Same.

Christian:

You needed a well,

Whitney:

you had to have a

Christian:

college enough that you needed a college I got

Whitney:

on the first year because I was in college When it came out. When it happened.

Christian:

Yeah. When they when they spread it out.

Whitney:

I was one of the first campuses, like, one of the first ten.

Christian:

Yeah. So that was back that's when we got on, actually.

Whitney:

For six, I think.

Christian:

Well, I mean, there were some people who were on AIM and stuff before that, but it wasn't like this Oh,

Whitney:

no. I was on Yahoo Messenger and AIM and the

Christian:

high school.

Christopher:

No. No.

Christian:

But I'm saying, like, the enduring it's posted. People can look at it.

Whitney:

Social media. Yeah. Oh, people had Myspace before that. I that's true.

Christopher:

I didn't get into Myspace.

Christopher:

You had

Christian:

the code for that. It was ugly.

Whitney:

And I don't care how much HTML you knew. It was still ugly because the framework was bad. Anyway, it came out.

Christian:

It was ugly. But I can't do other things.

Whitney:

I'm a keeper.

Christian:

The I've you know, when people are like, oh, I need to go back and scrub, you know, my stuff so you don't see. And I was like, I'm not gonna go looking because I wasn't I wasn't on the Internet like that. So I don't think I posted much. Like, most of my stuff was very I

Christopher:

My shit be coming up on Facebook Memories. I be deleting every post.

Christian:

Yeah. And the retires. And so I didn't post. Right? And so for me, I don't have to go erase it.

Christian:

I love this.

Whitney:

I don't erase shit.

Christian:

I don't

Whitney:

I need a reminder for how bad

Whitney:

I was.

Christian:

Well, I I remember. As bad as my memory is, I remember.

Whitney:

No. I don't But it's assessment of

Whitney:

crazy shit. So I was like,

Whitney:

wow. It's sobering. There was a sobering.

Christopher:

"This will be problematic when I become a public figure. Take that off."

Whitney:

I don't think any of mine were that bad, but they were just very oh my god.

Christian:

I mean,

Whitney:

I'm such an outsourcing of power. Yeah.

Christian:

Yeah. But there's a it's always gonna be about books y'all. Get over it.

Whitney:

Period.

Christian:

But there there's a lady who, at the beginning of the year, was talking about all the books she DNF'd because she's a Christian, and they had LGBTQ content.

Whitney:

Bitch, you're exhausting, and you don't deserve

Christian:

But here and I met there somebody started a tag, which is called I read it because it's queer. And I I participated. What just happened?

Christopher:

Celebrating you.

Whitney:

Oh, y'all. Chris did a little dance, and

Whitney:

neither one of us knew why it happened. a Turns out

Whitney:

he's celebrating his queer wife.

Christian:

That's hilarious. I appreciate

Christian:

you, though. Right.

Christopher:

Stand Up to the establishment.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And so I went, "fuck you!"

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

And a dance.

Christopher:

Right. That's

Christian:

right. Look. When I decide the rule is stupid, I don't wanna follow

Christopher:

it anymore. I'll be here for it. I'll be here for it. Dumb ass rules.

Whitney:

Great. Great.

Christopher:

Dumb ass rules.

Christian:

Fuck the rules.

Christopher:

Do your own shit. Do your own thing.

Christian:

Two of y'all. Every time. Every time, we're gonna celebrate. When Christian

Whitney:

comes out of the

Whitney:

when Christian exits any part of the matrix,

Whitney:

we are like, hell yeah.

Christopher:

Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

Fuck them niggas, which is my favorite face. Right. Here we go.

Whitney:

That shit. Fuck them niggas. They fuck them motherfucker. I am Sam Jackson. Oh my god.

Christian:

You are.

Christopher:

You are.

Christian:

You are Samuel Jackson right now. Fucking face. Yeah. And so it's like, I I read it because it's queer. And so when I saw this this trend happening, I was like, oh, I'm definitely gonna participate because I was this lady.

Christian:

Yeah. Like, not on the Internet, which I am appreciative for because I don't really wanna look at her. Like, I have her in my head, and I'd be like,

Whitney:

oh, girl.

Christian:

She's still there. She ain't gone. She just I got I got her kinda tied up in a corner. I mean

Christopher:

with a with a duct tape.

Whitney:

See, I would I would invite you to help integrate that bitch because why she gotta be done up in a corner with a blindfold and duct tape?

Christian:

It takes time.

Whitney:

She in the pokey.

Christian:

When it to to begin, I needed her to shut the fuck up. Okay?

Whitney:

That's fair.

Christian:

And even with her tied up, she'd still be talking.

Whitney:

Well and this is the thing. You don't I don't

Christopher:

It's time for the duct tape.

Whitney:

Silencing is not the right answer. And here I know it it I

Christian:

can hear you. But I'm what I'm saying is it somewhere.

Whitney:

True. But it's not gonna work. Right? That's why she's still talking.

Christian:

It's not Because it work long

Whitney:

Her tape don't even like, her tape got a microphone

Christopher:

No.

Whitney:

On the inside.

Christian:

No. No. No. No. No.

Whitney:

That's why you could still hear

Christian:

her. She's tied up.

Whitney:

Oh, you said she was taped up.

Christian:

He said he said I needed duct tape.

Whitney:

Heard Yeah.

Christopher:

Yeah. She said she keep talking. I say it's time for the

Christian:

She she's not in controlling you. Right?

Whitney:

And that's what it is. Right?

Christian:

She's not in controlling you, but she's still loud as fuck.

Whitney:

No. Absolutely. But this that's where we converse.

Christian:

And I'm working on that.

Whitney:

And I support you in this.

Christian:

I'm working on that part.

Whitney:

Because

Whitney:

it's it's tough to have to always argue with yourself.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

But there is a period of time where it's going to be required. Oh, I Hashtag still in it. Would have been in it fun.

Christian:

All of a really long time. Yeah. All the time.

Whitney:

Not all of it. But, like, it gets what I will say is it gets quicker.

Christian:

Oh, yeah. There She'll learn to stand down quicker. Once she learns

Whitney:

she don't got the power, she She you know? She

Christian:

there are aspects of judgy past Christian Yeah. That are more aware of, like it's like, hey. Yes. You think that you thought that, but this. Yes.

Christian:

That's what we used to say. Right. But this. Yes.

Whitney:

That's the process.

Christian:

Like, the kind of thing that I say to Sydney, and she'll be like, I don't blah blah blah. Is that kind? Would you like somebody to say that to you?

Whitney:

Yeah. You

Christian:

know, and I go, we treat we treat judgy Christian like that.

Whitney:

It's reparenting.

Christian:

Yes. Yes.

Whitney:

It's literally reparenting.

Christian:

So when I saw that that lady has said all this stuff, and I would you know, a lot of people were going after her when they made this post, which I get. Like yeah. So the I like the fact that I feel like I was that lady and that, like, now it's like, oh, I'm coming to coming to grips, like, getting more acquainted with queer me and, like, acknowledging queer me and going through that process after having been the person who was, like, oh, no. I can't read anything with sex in it. I can't read anything with queer people in it.

Christian:

Though I wasn't super, like, strict about that. It was, like, as long as I didn't read sex, they could be in love. It was fine. But that was, like, a general thing. That didn't have to do with queer sex.

Christian:

That was, like, no sex.

Christopher:

No sex at whole?

Christian:

None at all. I I didn't wanna see Even in the champagne room.

Christopher:

We dry initially.

Christopher:

The

Christian:

what? The champagne room. No sex in the champagne

Christopher:

room. No sex in the champagne room. It was a whole thing with, Chris Rock and Gerald Levert. Yeah. There was no sex.

Christopher:

It was a monologue. No sex in the champagne room. The champagne room is a strip club where you get to private lap dance.

Whitney:

It's flu.

Christopher:

But

Christopher:

you don't have sex. You just get you just get to laugh. You get to This

Christian:

flew over my head so hard.

Christopher:

I know. Literally, like, staring at whole era during your save lights. It happened during your saved era.

Christian:

I've never been one for, like, that type of comedy.

Whitney:

And Montoux. It was during my same year.

Christian:

Yeah. That that type of

Christopher:

comedy is not usually my my No.

Whitney:

It was funny usually my my No. It was funny, though.

Christopher:

I think you would've Yeah.

Whitney:

Not enjoyed it per se, but I think you you would've found the humor.

Christopher:

Yeah. Yeah. Chris Rock was very deadpan.

Whitney:

And it was it was Gerald fucking Lavert singing like Gerald fucking Lavert.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

That's really That part

Christopher:

of that

Christopher:

singing the hardest shit.

Christian:

Yeah. Like, seeing seeing this, like, all of these queer people feeling like like you you're just gonna, like, DNF stories, but because they include people that you don't like. And then you're gonna talk about it and make it, like, a thing. Right? Here's what I'll say.

Christian:

I am glad I grew up. I am glad that I am Selah. That my that my brain has been released of the confines of trying to contort itself to be someone that it was not. But that now means that I have to figure out who the fuck I am. So that's that's fun.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christian:

So yeah. Back to back to what we were talking about.

Christopher:

I was gonna piggyback on that because like you said, there is a period of vulnerability. I'm still in now. I was like, okay. Well, who am I? You know, I was I thought I was talking to preach, but it's like, who am I now that I don't have a pulpit to preach in?

Christopher:

Because I don't find myself feel feel comfortable in traditional church. Mhmm. So it's like, who am I now? What is my calling now? And what does that look like now?

Christian:

Yeah. What does spirituality look like now? What does

Christopher:

that look like? Yeah. What does my spirituality look like now? Because it's you know, churches don't hit like it used to. Yeah.

Christopher:

You know?

Christian:

And Welcome to the jungle. We've got fun and games.

Christopher:

Right. Right. And while there are churches that I would probably vibe with that do have a more progressive bent to them, There's still, like, a church mindset that I I I struggle

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

With. Yeah. I was even thinking about that. I was like, okay. What kind of person?

Christopher:

I I asked Chet GBT and then they told me. It's like, give me the psychological profile of a person that is attracted by preaching. And it gave me

Whitney:

Say that again. Doing what?

Christopher:

You give me the psychological profile of a person that's attracted by preaching.

Christian:

To preaching?

Christopher:

Attracted by being preached to and being preached at.

Whitney:

Oh, okay. I I yeah. I got it.

Christopher:

Oh, uh-huh. As opposed to any other communication styles and stuff.

Christian:

Mhmm. And, question. Okay.

Christopher:

Yeah. Because I I

Whitney:

think that's a good ass question.

Christopher:

It's a good question. Because, like is

Whitney:

what type of GPT said? Right.

Christopher:

It's, you know, people who need certainty because

Whitney:

Yeah. Season one, go back and revisit.

Christopher:

You know, people who need certainty, I'd have to pull it up.

Christian:

It's okay.

Christopher:

But

Christopher:

yeah. I mean, above the saying, I'd have to pull it up to to remember. But it was basically saying it's like, oh, it attracts all the kinds of people that I no longer am trying to hold their attention. Mhmm. And it's like It

Whitney:

attracts misalignment. Mhmm. So now what do you do?

Christian:

That's the question. That is the question.

Christopher:

Yeah. I've I changed my communication style. I expand my definition of what my what I felt called to do. Yeah. I reevaluate my own spiritual experiences with God that is more conducive to my course.

Christian:

And I mean, that's that's like we said earlier, like, when you're having a difficult when you're preparing for a difficult conversation, and sometimes a difficult conversation is with you. It

Whitney:

was for me.

Christian:

You know, going through the what is it that I am wanting? What is it that I'm needing? What am I not getting? And how can I manifest that? Right.

Christian:

And I think, like, for me, when it comes to, like, those having that, like, that next that next level of the after you evaluate, like, what's my accountability in this? That next part of, like, I feel like this when this happens. I want this. That next part of the conversation is is maybe harder Yeah. Because it's like, I have to acknowledge what I want.

Christian:

I have to, like, evaluate what it is that I really want because it's like, okay. This doesn't go the way I want. Right? What do I want? I want it to go the way I want.

Whitney:

Well, is that all you want? Specific.

Christian:

Right? Is that all you want? Because that's not happening. Because this requires the other person to do what you want, and they're not.

Christopher:

Right. Right.

Whitney:

And you or rather, you can't control that in the outcome. That part. Even if they do, you don't actually have control over that. That is completely up to their will.

Christian:

Whether or not they actually do whatever it is that you want, including you. So it's like it this probably in my head, this feels less caustic if I pretend I'm talking to me than if I pretend I'm talking to somebody else. Right? So if I wanna go to the gym, but I also don't wanna go to the gym. Relatable.

Christian:

Right?

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

I never wanna go to the gym. Nonrelatable.

Christian:

Right. So

Christopher:

now that I think about it.

Christian:

It's like now that I know when

Christopher:

you mention it.

Christopher:

I

Whitney:

hate the gym the way Kehlani hates the club. That will miss you, but for my

Christian:

the gay listeners, they'll get it. Okay. Alright. People who generally listen to music. Because I don't

Christopher:

know if

Christopher:

you just Kehlani.

Whitney:

Kehlani is what it boils.

Christian:

Oh, okay. Yeah. So I was like, okay. I wanna go to the gym. I also can't get myself to go to the gym.

Christian:

And so it's like, why do you wanna go to the gym? I wanna go to the gym because I feel like x y and z. I feel like I'm supposed to go to the gym. Why and, like, digging into, like, what what is the base of what it is that you want? I feel like people judge me because I'm overweight or blah blah blah.

Christian:

I judge myself because I am overweight. Who decided what overweight was? Right? And so, like, going into all of those questions and asking those questions and, like, going through the process of figuring out what you actually feel. And like, if you then being able to communicate that to someone else.

Christian:

Because I think if you get down to like past the the first I statement that first, I don't like it. Right? Why don't you like it? What is it that you don't like? Like, if you can get past those first few questions, you can actually start to have discussions about how we can solve the problem besides just doing what you want.

Christopher:

Yeah. Right. So one of those I statements.

Whitney:

I was like, I wanna back up and talk about I statements. So the idea I statements is really

Christian:

about owning your experience

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christian:

Specifically.

Christopher:

Right.

Christopher:

Oh, okay.

Whitney:

Right? And so the difference between owning and not owning looks like, Christian, you made me feel like yeah. Versus Mhmm. When this happened, I felt. Right.

Whitney:

You're owning your emotion. Gotcha. Right? It's the idea that no one can actually make you feel any type of way.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Right. Yeah. Right. Like, you feel how you and listen, your feeling is valid regardless. But you feel how you feel based on a whole system of things.

Whitney:

Right? Like your past experience Right. Your lens through which you see the world. Right? Like, there are so many things that go into feeling how we feel Right.

Whitney:

That have way more to do than, like, with what the actions or behaviors of of a single individual. Yeah. Right?

Christian:

Person. Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

And so, like and it's so interesting when I get new clients who are are new to this shit

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

There's a lot of, well, they just did that and they know and they be feeling like

Christian:

and they be acting like and they already

Whitney:

know that's about to piss me off. Right?

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

And sometimes listen. Sometimes, niggas weaponize incompetence. I'm not gonna say that they didn't. But at the end of the day, own your feeling. Mhmm.

Whitney:

Because what what you're actually saying is, I want you to own your action because your action made me feel this way. Right. It's like, no. They need to own their action because that was their action.

Christopher:

And you

Christian:

need to own your feeling because that's your feeling.

Whitney:

Yeah. They belong to each of you individually. Mhmm. Right? And if you're in a caring again, I'll go back to caring conversations.

Whitney:

If you're in a conversation that that actually matters. Right? Like, you have you have some skin in this game. Also, if you keep having to do that and and, like, it's not receptive, maybe you reconsider the the parameters of your relationship.

Christopher:

But Yeah.

Whitney:

Whatever it may be.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

This is where boundaries come into play. But but this this owning of it's really it's owning your own truth.

Christopher:

Yeah. It's it's it's it's owning your truth, and it's actually learning how to speak the truth and love.

Whitney:

That's it. And so, like It's

Christopher:

as much as we want to.

Whitney:

No. No. No. Go ahead.

Christopher:

You know, promulgate that.

Whitney:

And and that's really it. And so, like and I think it's the externalization and allow me to muse for a second. But, like, I think the externalization of that is still, like, us distancing from our emotion. Right? To say you made me do it.

Christopher:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Whitney:

Absolutely. You're still not you're still not cool with you. And maybe, I would bet, haven't truly investigated what actually happened inside of you. Sure. Right.

Whitney:

Because when you have to own it, you have to say, I felt was shit.

Christian:

And you have to Why did I feel? You have to explore it.

Whitney:

Yeah. Right. That's the now now you now you're fucking Dora. Okay? You gotta go on an expedition.

Christian:

Okay. Journey to Ernie. That's that's my favorite part. I know it is. Alright.

Whitney:

And so now, like, you do. You have to go deep inside and figure out, okay, what pieces of me came together for this to actually happen? And then you gotta take accountability for your shit.

Christian:

Yeah. Mhmm.

Whitney:

Because oftentimes, what we see is people using when you externalize to, like, they did this, then you get a, now I'm gonna buy the so right, like, now you're reacting. Right.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Right? So you're not even in control of your own behavior because your behavior is contingent upon the other person. Yeah. Well, that's never that is never the way it has to be. Right.

Whitney:

Not as adults with agency. Right. That's never the way it has to be. Right.

Christian:

Like, you can always respond to your environment.

Whitney:

It's a choice. Reaction is a choice. Right.

Christopher:

Right. Yeah. And I was gonna say, just like you said that for relational, it even spaws out to even, like, projects and things that you are passionate about. Mhmm. And you just have to be more introspective about why you're doing what you're doing Mhmm.

Christopher:

And be more perceptive and present to sense when you may need to make some changes or pivot.

Christian:

Absolutely.

Christopher:

Like, I had you know, like I said, I had my own, you know, come to Jesus moment several times over this past couple years about different projects I was doing.

Christian:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

And it just really kinda came down to you. I was like, okay. Is this a is this more of a me thing? What's the vibe here? Yeah.

Christopher:

What direction do I need to go now? Mhmm. Now that the, you know, the the fruit of my decisions over the past eighteen months has been this when it should not have been what does what does my vision for my life look like now?

Christian:

Mhmm. You know? Yeah.

Christopher:

And you you and it's and instead of blaming everybody else for the failure of the project. Yeah. It's okay. What did I do

Christopher:

Yep.

Christopher:

That contributed to this? And why has to not been an attraction or a gravitation towards whatever I'm trying to do? Yeah. And You you you understand?

Christian:

Yeah. And so I think, like, what you're what you're talking about is very similar. It again, this will be easier if we just use examples, but I can't think of one, like Mhmm. A steady one that I wanna use. But when you're when you evaluate, like, what is it that I want?

Christian:

Why do I want this thing? And is this the only way to do the thing I want? Yeah. Right? Because Mhmm.

Christian:

I can say for me, that's usually where I get caught up. It is very hard for me once I get locked in on an idea, and I think you're similar, to be able to go, That's not the only way to do what I want, though. Yeah. Like, there are other ways to do what I want, but I have to get down. I have to keep drilling.

Christian:

Well, I want this. Why do you want that? I want that. And the the closer you get to if it's I want peace, I want security, I want to encourage, I want that. Like, if you can get down to that bottom layer beyond, like, the the the the easy shit that's, like, floating on top of the water, once you dive down deep and, like, really see what's the bedrock of my problem, like, then you can start to, like, shift your approach.

Christian:

Right? Yep. Because what did you don't be persistent.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

Pivot. Pivot. Yeah. And a lot of us, we stay banging our heads on walls. Mhmm.

Christian:

And it's like, look.

Christopher:

Not bad. My head is strong enough for this brick.

Christian:

Is if your goal is a concussion

Whitney:

Right.

Christian:

Man. It's Right? If the goal is not a concussion and you wanna get to the other side of the wall, you might wanna, like, step back and see if there's any other rocks. Yeah. Do I need a grappling hook?

Christian:

Do I need a shovel? Do I need to walk a few paces to the left and find a door?

Whitney:

So the example that comes to mind for this is one of, like, the and I'm I'm probably gonna say this just as a creative. Right? So, like, the example of what do you wanna be when you grow up? And we ask kids that until they're probably about middle school. Yeah.

Whitney:

And once they get into high school, we want you to get serious about your answer.

Christian:

Yeah. Mhmm.

Whitney:

Right? And in terms of what are you gonna be? Well, no. You need to pick something that's gonna, like, be lucrative. You need

Christopher:

to more realistic.

Whitney:

Right. Yep. What the fuck is real anyway. Mhmm. But

Christian:

I can't see an entire computer in my pocket.

Whitney:

That was not realistic forty years ago. I'm just saying reality

Christopher:

is a

Whitney:

construct. And so, like, truly. But and so then you end up doing this thing. Right? Like, you might go to college.

Whitney:

I will speak truly for the millennial journey. I think the the Z'ers, they onto something.

Christian:

They they trying to be.

Christopher:

They they

Christian:

and they definitely trying to. Right.

Whitney:

But for millennials, it was very much, well, you wanna have a good life.

Christian:

You gotta get a degree.

Whitney:

If you got big dreams, you want fame. Well, fame costs. Sorry. I did this earlier

Christian:

in a week with a Christian, and she did not get the reference for fame at all. Anyway, but, like Now I know.

Whitney:

It's very much like, you pick a career. You pick a major. Right? Then you pick a career so you can make money because you were told

Christian:

matter of fact, I'll

Whitney:

fuck it. I'll be the example. Okay? So growing up, there were two things I wanted to be, an actress

Christopher:

Uh-huh.

Whitney:

And a psychologist.

Christian:

Yes. Two things. So growing up,

Whitney:

I I kept doing I kept turns out I kept growing. And Mhmm. People were like, oh, what do you wanna do?

Christian:

I wanna be an actress And a psychologist. And

Whitney:

a psychologist. Right? Like, I don't know how that work. But that's why I

Christopher:

Like, these

Whitney:

two things feel great to me. Mhmm. They feel great since you started asking me what I was for.

Christopher:

They give me life.

Christian:

You know?

Whitney:

Mhmm. And it very much became a conversation in truly my family primarily and, like, concerned adults Yep. That, like, okay. That's great. Oh, no.

Whitney:

You are good. But, like, you need a backup plan. Like, how first of all, bitch, psychology,

Christian:

problem is they knew people that majored in psychology

Whitney:

and didn't do shit. Yep. That's not what I wanted to do.

Christopher:

They ain't got shit doing me.

Whitney:

It's not my business. And so, like, I ended up as a very determined young person, I ended up going to college

Christian:

Yep.

Whitney:

A fourth theater the first semester.

Christian:

Yep. And was just like, oh my god. This is first of all, it's too fun. Second of all, like, am I gonna starve to death?

Whitney:

Not in college, but, like, in life. Life. Yeah.

Christopher:

And they're

Christian:

and, like, it's about

Whitney:

being away from home. It should start to get real Yeah. A little bit more. It's just like, oh, no. Maybe they're right.

Whitney:

I need a backup plan. Now let me tell y'all, a bitch ain't never been good at a backup plan. I am very plan a. Mhmm.

Christian:

Plan a or bust.

Whitney:

Like, truly, like, I I was telling them earlier, people be like, oh, don't put all your eggs in one basket. I will put all my eggs in this basket.

Christopher:

What the fuck? I only have one basket, bitch.

Whitney:

I intuited that this was the right basket. Why don't I gotta use this one so you don't want me to use two hands to carry multiple baskets when I could just put all my shit in this one basket and go? Because I was told that this is the basket. It's supposed to like, I know this basket on a soul level.

Christopher:

Well, the point That's it. Economy is scarce. Ain't enough baskets go around. If I

Whitney:

got more invest. I I'm gonna

Christian:

invest in my one.

Whitney:

You know? And that's that's really, honestly and I know they're like, oh, that's a bad thing. I'm I'm assuming that came from financial shit, which is, you know, different. You wanna diversify your streams of income. That's not supported that.

Whitney:

I'm not saying that. But, like, we've taken that and extrapolated it to mean so many things. I'm just not a I'm Mhmm. I'm a one basket kinda bitch. And so I'm a one basket.

Whitney:

I it was just like, oh, shit. This is y'all, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to make the money and but I also made a poor decision and decided to switch to liberal arts. But, you know, I say poor decision, but fuck it. I had a great time. I learned so much, and I would not be the person I am without either of my liberal arts majors.

Whitney:

I did change my my major three times. Anyway, neither here nor there. And so I ended up I said I wasn't good at plan. I'm only good at plan a. That's a lie.

Whitney:

I ended up living out my entire plan b.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

Not good at it.

Whitney:

Yeah. Good. Okay? Like, to this day, UK people can say what they wanna say. I'm a good ass leader.

Whitney:

Anybody that's ever been led by me that I know of has agreed. I'm not saying I'm without flaws. What I'm saying is I'm good at this shit, and you're not gonna talk me out of that. Right. There you go.

Whitney:

And the people that the people that actually disagree are actual terrible leaders. Can I'm saying I'm not. I've only had maybe two or three people that I think would disagree with that. Yeah. And they're all fucking terrible confirmed by multiple sources.

Christopher:

Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

And so well, you know. And so so They

Christopher:

just had a title.

Whitney:

They can't be trusted. And so all I'm saying, like, yeah, I got some shit out of that. Blah blah blah. But also, my kindergarten teacher said I was a natural born leader, so I probably was just born with it, bitch. Ain't no Maybelline.

Christian:

Maybe she's Maybelline.

Whitney:

No. It's just Whitney. Period. And so, like, I did all of this. Right?

Whitney:

Because this was the thing Yeah. That I was supposed to do. Yep. And it turns out, I feel like I got so far from myself. Mhmm.

Whitney:

So fucking far from myself to the point now I'm in my fortieth year of life. I'm not 40 yet. But this is But I like being old, so I'm saying I'm in my fortieth year of life because this is.

Christopher:

Count my round numbers.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. Count like the Koreans. The Koreans. That's is that that's probably disrespectful. I take that back.

Whitney:

And so but I'm

Christopher:

a edit that out. You don't have to. Oh, okay. You have to. Yeah.

Christopher:

I actually did apologize.

Whitney:

Yeah. And I meant it. I am intrigued.

Christian:

We'll talk about that later. Fun.

Whitney:

And so yeah. And so I'm just like now I'm at the point where I'm like, yo, it's got to be aligned. Yeah. With my soul

Christian:

or I'm not doing it. So I'm undertaking a venture Mhmm.

Whitney:

That, like, isn't gonna outright at the the face value starting point pay anything close

Christopher:

No. To where

Whitney:

I was. I mean, god, if you wanna sprinkle some magic, cool. But I

Christian:

can work.

Whitney:

Yeah. But that's gonna be a mighty

Christian:

Mhmm. Mighty woo.

Whitney:

And when I say I can do it, what I'm saying is I'm not even expecting that because that's not the point for

Christian:

me. Yeah.

Whitney:

The point is to stay in alignment with my soul. And I think to me, that was an example of what you were talking about, which now I have forgotten.

Christian:

Deep and finding, like, the base root of God. Because at the end of the day, I had this, like, oh, this is why you wanna do that.

Whitney:

Why do you what do you wanna be when you grow up? Well, I guess I'm gonna be, I don't know, bitch, a fucking director. Right? Which I wouldn't. Right.

Whitney:

I would not have answered

Christian:

that. Of course not.

Whitney:

I don't think I've ever had a job that I knew existed as a kid.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

No. Nope. Not one. May I no. I've had a few.

Christian:

I've had a few.

Whitney:

You work in finance.

Christian:

I don't know. It's this job. I do not. Yeah. That's the confusing part.

Christian:

So I did not know that this job existed.

Whitney:

That's fair.

Christian:

Yeah. But others, I did. Fair.

Whitney:

Yeah. I did. That's fair.

Christopher:

I didn't know my job existed either.

Christian:

No. Definitely not. Definitely not.

Christopher:

Our company exists because billionaires exist. We have no real contribution to society. No.

Whitney:

I wouldn't say that.

Christian:

I mean, there is some, but the, like,

Christopher:

the the scale Depending on the in which they function requires

Christian:

a lot of people with outrageous amounts of money. Yeah.

Christopher:

That's what I mean. Yeah. So it's

Christian:

scale for sure. Not the not the general objective, but, like Yes. Yeah.

Whitney:

That's fair.

Christian:

No. When he said it to me the first time, I was like, I don't know if that's true, but, like, scale you.

Whitney:

And so it's it's this question of, like, well, why do you wanna do that? Well, because I wanna make money. Yeah. Well, why do you wanna make money? I don't know.

Whitney:

Because I don't wanna be broke. Okay. But why don't what what is the fear under the brokenness, bitch? Poverty is the fear.

Christopher:

Poverty is the fear.

Whitney:

Right? The fear that, like, I won't have the things that I need. What's under that? The fear that I won't be safe.

Christian:

It's a it's a fear of not surviving. Right.

Whitney:

And then when I got to that fear of not surviving, what I recognized is my

Christian:

plan b that have the money wasn't actually allowing me to survive in the way in which I needed to.

Whitney:

And having to make that switch to say,

Christian:

oh, so money is not survival. Prestige is not survival.

Whitney:

Mhmm.

Christian:

For me, survival is alignment.

Whitney:

Turns out, it is it hit a little different. It's still hitting. It

Christian:

Yeah. Watch me unfold.

Whitney:

But it is still hitting,

Christopher:

and it's

Whitney:

been a long hit. It's been Yeah. Like, eight nineteen months now that I've been on this this particular leg of this journey, but it is something different when you get to that base question

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Of what do I actually want? What is what is what? What is the what? What is the why Right. Mhmm.

Whitney:

Of what I need?

Christian:

And I could all day, well, because they said and they asked and they didn't and they did yeah. I could do that, but that

Whitney:

where does that get me? Mhmm. Yeah. Where does that get me as an adult with agency? Where does that get me?

Whitney:

If I'm you, you, you, you, you. Externalizing all the time.

Christian:

Where did Yeah.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

I relinquishing my power to you.

Christopher:

Right. You gotta

Christian:

And for why?

Christopher:

You right.

Christian:

And for what? Like, baby, if they did cool,

Whitney:

that's what it is. And I think that's that also applies in relationships. Right? Speaking as the person who is not married in this room. Like, I think that is also another thing when you're like, well, I just need them to why why why do you need them to?

Whitney:

What is it you're trying to get? Right. And if you get to the bottom of it, you may see, well, maybe, whether they're capable or not, they are not giving it to you.

Christopher:

Yeah. Right.

Whitney:

And that's and it's it's Like a choice accordingly.

Christopher:

Right. And that's interesting because and and and like you just said, I've and I've said this sometime in the past that if you need closure, close it. It's not

Christopher:

Amen.

Christopher:

And I Right? And I and I'm trepidations about Santa because I have been the person who has not given closure to people that needed it. But

Christian:

But only I've

Christopher:

also been on the receiving end of people who have not given me that. Yeah. And I've had to close it. And so it's like

Whitney:

I was like, we do it all the time. Doug is often a closure

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

That you have to make.

Christian:

It's Yeah. Sometimes it's it's like forcing your hand. You know? And sometimes even when people die, it's like it still doesn't feel closed.

Christopher:

Yeah. But you yeah. So it's it's a it's a You have to

Whitney:

close it.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christopher:

You have to close it.

Christopher:

I don't

Christopher:

know why they broke it. I don't know.

Christian:

But you gotta close it.

Christopher:

But you gotta close it. If you're gonna move on if if you wanna stay here, then keep asking that question.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

Keep and and because unbeknownst to you, it's going to remain rhetorical. Yeah. Because there will never be an answer. Even if you talk to the motherfucker, they will never give you an answer.

Christian:

That's gonna satisfy you.

Christopher:

Gonna satisfy you. Yeah. You have to close it.

Whitney:

You have to close it.

Christopher:

You have to make the narrative and the script in your head that keep that gives you the peace to move on. Yeah. Yeah. They nobody will give that for you. And stop externalizing That's it.

Christopher:

Your agency in that regard.

Whitney:

A % agree. I I'm oh, sorry. Me me processing. No. I % agree with that.

Whitney:

Something that I've read recently. I can't even tell you which book because I read three books at a time.

Christian:

Same.

Whitney:

And so one of them book and the the three that I'm reading right now are relatively similar. I didn't even

Christian:

I wouldn't even Yeah.

Whitney:

I can't even know.

Christian:

I I tried to open it. I didn't do it on purpose. Then I can't keep it straight.

Whitney:

I mean, I'm I'm I'm straight enough

Christian:

when I'm reading it. Alright.

Whitney:

But, like, they're they they honestly fold into each other. No. I got you.

Christopher:

So

Christian:

but it might actually been it might have been a book I finished. It might have been that O'Shea book. Anyway,

Whitney:

this idea that, like, the future is, like, it's a delusion. Oh, we talked about this. Like, the future, but it's also based on past. Right? Yeah.

Christopher:

Yeah. That tomorrow is yesterday's past. So something like

Christian:

That was me. But

Christopher:

Yeah. Today's tomorrow's

Christian:

the day. Past that.

Christopher:

Some something along that line. Today is the future's past.

Whitney:

Yes. That's what it was.

Christopher:

I was like, I'm I'm gonna

Whitney:

He's like, I'm gonna get it. Wait a

Christian:

minute because

Christopher:

I have

Christopher:

to tell you. Right.

Whitney:

Yes. Today is the future's past. It's the future's it's tomorrow.

Christopher:

It Today is tomorrow's past.

Whitney:

Today is because it wasn't today because it's talking about the future. Anyway, the idea Mhmm. The idea that, like, the future is just a projection of

Christopher:

the past.

Christian:

That's it. There you

Whitney:

go. And so thank you. So, yes, it's just a projection of the, like, the past into the future. That's all you can do. You don't have enough information to actually imagine things to predict.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christopher:

Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

They they could be. And so when I think about closure, it's like the thing that is preventing you from closure, it's not actually the past. It is like whatever future you constructed while you was in the past that you're still holding out hope for.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Like, you're refusing to exist in the present Yes. Of, like, what this actually What

Christian:

the reality is currently. Yeah.

Whitney:

You know? And so it's interesting. Like, I

Christian:

you know, there's there's been several. Like, 2024

Whitney:

is was a doozy of a bitch. And let's say, like, there are several people that have fallen out of my life, and there are moments where I'm like, but that don't even make sense. And then I'm like, does it? Literally, I'll be in

Christian:

the bathroom mirror being like, now with me.

Whitney:

I want you to tell me why that don't make sense. Because based off everything else you see Yeah. Experience.

Christian:

It seems in line.

Whitney:

I was like, it doesn't make sense with your fantasy. Right? There's this guy I started following recently. He does, like, all of these, like, it's just information post, which I you know, I love because that's I say that shit all the time. Like, it's information.

Whitney:

Yeah. You gotta decide what you're gonna do with it.

Christopher:

Right. Do with that what you will.

Whitney:

Exactly. And so but he, like, one that was one of the things he was talking about. He's like, you know, when Yuri I think one of his posts was like, when you're revisiting relationships that have ended, like, you have notes?

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Like, you you've done this before. So, like, basically, the general gist is, like, go in eyes open. Mhmm. And, like, don't try to make it something that it's not.

Christopher:

Mhmm. Right.

Christian:

Shit. That also happened to be in 2024. What was 2024?

Whitney:

I'm so glad she's done

Christian:

the shit show. But it

Whitney:

was a good shit show.

Christian:

I mean, there were good parts.

Whitney:

It was, like, more like a bounce house.

Christian:

I can't do bounce house. You know, and I don't care for them. But, like, they're respectful. Loved them. What happened?

Whitney:

My knees don't. I they just smell weird. They They smell like

Christian:

feel like child feet and sweat. They smell like feet. I don't just sticky jam heads. If you get a good one.

Whitney:

I don't have much in I don't know. Anything that has too many children touching it really is concerning to me. But That's why I don't

Christian:

go to Chuck E. Cheese. I just exactly. That smell like feet and pizza.

Whitney:

Because it's children. And so and I love them, but fuck. But

Christian:

be. But no.

Whitney:

And so, like, this idea that, like, you you

Christian:

have to come to grips Mhmm. With what is in the reality.

Whitney:

And I know I say reality is a construct, but, like

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

What has experienced it? Right. Because somebody can first of all, people can talk a big game.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

People often talk the way that they wanna be perceived.

Christian:

Of course. That's what

Christopher:

we all do.

Whitney:

Not who they really fucking are.

Christian:

Real time filter,

Whitney:

which is a neurodivergent person that really fucks with

Christian:

me. Fair.

Whitney:

Like, it Yeah. Fucks with me heavy. Because

Christian:

Just tell me what you mean.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah. Neurodivergent, I'm a like, I'm pretty direct. I'm kinda direct to a fault.

Christian:

Yeah. Fuck that.

Whitney:

Fuck fault. But but, like, I I am. I'm really direct. And now that I've been on my vulnerability journey, I'm really, like, saying what I mean. Right?

Whitney:

Like Yeah. Because I deserve.

Christian:

And so what is the result

Christopher:

of that?

Christian:

Like, when you when you when

Whitney:

you

Christian:

go ahead and you take that leap and you're like, you know what? This feels weird. You're not you're not being clear. I am going to talk to you about this awkward thing. Like, what happens then?

Christian:

So with another person? Yeah. Oh, man. It depends on what you're saying. Let's go with another person for now because we kinda talked about what happens with, like, when we do it with ourselves, like, coming to realizations and, like, deciding whether or not to pivot.

Christian:

But I guess the same thing kinda happens when you talk to other people. You get you get feedback, you get information.

Whitney:

You get information.

Christian:

And possibly it's clarifying, and you're like, oh, okay. We're gonna do this. Mhmm. Or it's confirming to what you thought was true, and it's like, oh, well, we're going over there. Yeah.

Christian:

You know? But, like, after the fact, what is, like, the the biggest benefit of, like, going ahead and just having the conversation?

Whitney:

Information. And this is why. So I have been in positions where, like, I've had these conversations where I'm like, hey. This is uncomfortable. I'm a say the thing.

Christian:

Mhmm. Yeah.

Whitney:

And sometimes it's literally like, I'm trying to get better at saying the thing, so I'm just gonna say the thing. Yep. Right? And the conversation is good. And I've had these conversations where we've like normally because I also I'm not I don't wanna argue.

Whitney:

Yeah. And so, like, even if we are, like, going you know, not even necessarily back and forth, but, like, we're exchanging ideas. Mhmm. My tone is usually this. Right?

Whitney:

Like, I'm not I don't wanna like that. I'm I'm excitable, but I'm not a rah rah bitch. Look. Right.

Christian:

Scared me just then. So yeah.

Whitney:

You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not I'm yeah. I'm not. Like and if if I really want you to hear something, I'm very cognizant of, like, I don't want the delivery to fuck up the message.

Christian:

Yep. Right?

Whitney:

And that's after years of being a person where delivery fucked up the message. Right? So I'm an adult now.

Christian:

Thank you.

Christopher:

So we put away childish things.

Whitney:

We put away childish things, except I got a desk full of toys. But and so, like, we can have this conversation, and usually one of two things happens afterwards.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Either we actually reached an understanding.

Christian:

You're right. Mhmm.

Whitney:

And there's double points of clarity. And usually, what happens in this conversation is is there's something I need to take accountability for that I didn't realize they were experiencing. Right? And so that happens, and we're good. And, like, then we we go on with a more roads and open pathways for communication, a deeper sense of, like, into intimacy in a relationship, but I don't mean an intimate relationship.

Christopher:

No. No. Like I said,

Whitney:

I have the best group of friends. Like, we have I have close friendships. Right. This is the only kind of friendship I know. And so, like, now there's a trust to be closer.

Whitney:

There is a trust to, like, I can trust you with me. Right? Right? Right. When when actions when our words and our actions align.

Christian:

Right.

Whitney:

Then there's the other set of people Yep. That speak as if speak how they would like to be perceived.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

But then because they're not quite those people, maybe they're in transition, they're in a growth period Right. Or they're bullshitting, then their actions don't align with the words that we have now

Christian:

communicated. Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

Right? And so because I'm me, I'm a you're human. I'm a I'm a try to consider your humanity because that's a big thing for me. So you normally get like a, hey.

Christian:

You said we agreed.

Whitney:

Like, I literally had to have a conversation with someone where I was like, yo, we talked about this less than a week ago, and so you're, like, outright disregard of this feels really dismissive to me.

Christian:

Yeah. People don't like that.

Whitney:

People don't like that. And I said it, it was a text. But when I said it, that's how I said it. Like, it feels loudly dis I I use the words loudly dismissive.

Christopher:

And my verse be hidden there. Every

Whitney:

time. And so, like, it was it was one of those things where, a, that's hard for me to say as a recovering people pleaser. Yeah. But, b, I need to say it because we

Christian:

just we just talked about

Whitney:

it and reached a conclusion, and it felt amicable. You know? And then now when your actions don't align.

Christian:

Right. And

Whitney:

then it happened again. And I was like,

Christian:

oh. When people show you who they are. Believe them.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

But see, I'd be gracious. I'd be given more than the first time.

Christian:

Yep. But you got information now. And and

Whitney:

that was it. And each time I gather information, that's what you need to know. There's a there's a file folder in my head. You know? Right.

Whitney:

Truly, like, again, when I say

Christian:

I keep receipts, I mean it.

Whitney:

And it's not even in a vindictive way. It's really just how my brain works. But I have receipts also in in real life. But when that happens, then that is information that I now Yeah. Get to exercise my agency to say, oh, the reality of this situation is not what I thought it was.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And so because it is not that, I need to either maneuver away or maneuver differently depending on the the, you know, circle phase. The circle.

Christian:

Yeah. The nature of the relationship. Exactly.

Whitney:

But I need to now maneuver differently.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Because you not you're not in alignment with yourself.

Christian:

Yeah. How we gonna

Whitney:

be in alignment when you're incongruent?

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christian:

It's a question. Mhmm. The people wanna know.

Christopher:

Yeah. You gotta battle within.

Whitney:

Right. Which is why I work so hard to be congruent myself. Like, I wanna be trustworthy.

Christian:

Yeah. Right.

Whitney:

Right? Like, I wanna be accountable to me.

Christopher:

That's what integrity is.

Whitney:

That's it's literally, like, I am so big on integrity. If I'm saying to people, love is my religion, well, bitch, you better be decent at loving. By decent, I mean, fucking good. And, like, every day, figuring out what does that mean to get better? What, like, what could that look like?

Christian:

Yeah. Mhmm.

Whitney:

Yeah. Even when it's hard. Right.

Christian:

Like, I gotta do a lot of

Whitney:

work, and I'm going to do it. Yeah.

Christian:

So, I mean, like, that obviously, that the biggest result is that now you have the information you need to make whatever decision you wanna make.

Whitney:

Every decision.

Christian:

But there's also, at least, when when you finally I say when you finally when I finally right get to the point where I can have some of these conversations, there's a burden lifted. Right? Absolutely. There's a there's a release. There's a because, like, you either have like, you have information available, like you said, to make decisions.

Christian:

Like, that's that's one way that this could go. Mhmm. That's one aspect of it, but you also have a freedom. So I not only have the information right to to make different decisions going forward if necessary, But I also am released of the burden of reliving and reprocessing this shit in my head all the damn time. I don't

Whitney:

know that that's true.

Christian:

Well At No. No. No.

Christopher:

No. No.

Whitney:

But now I'm processing with information.

Christian:

Well, I mean I'm in less of the dark. Right? I like I I have more like, the information is, like, okay. That part's not true. This is this is not how that is.

Christian:

This is not what that is. Right? I'm no longer like, I I have a new way to project into the future. But I guess what I'm saying is, like, there's a burden that is lifted when I'm constantly in a place where it's like, I need to have this conversation. I need to have this conversation.

Christian:

I need to have this conversation.

Whitney:

Yeah. My anticipation, the anxiety

Christian:

present. The anxiety of waiting to have the conversation is like, oh, fuck. At least we had the conversation. Okay.

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

I didn't die.

Whitney:

It was like, yeah. The fallout can bring its own anxiety.

Christian:

Yes. The fall

Whitney:

Depending on Now you've progressed.

Christian:

Depending on what the the result of the conversation is, honestly. But, like, you know, when you're talking about, like, all the pain of avoiding it.

Whitney:

But Jesus. Yeah. Jesus. We were talking about avoidance before we started and I Jesus.

Christian:

Yes. And, you know, it took us a while to get in this episode because I was I was heavy into the heavy into my withdrawal and disassociate. But, like, all of that is is so draining. It is. It's like the conversation is draining, but not having the conversation is draining and unproductive.

Christian:

I don't have any new information when I just hold it. And I think in a

Whitney:

way, it breaks trust too. Right? So, like, if there you and I have been best friends forever.

Christian:

Forever. Like, literally.

Whitney:

Right. Like, our whole lives.

Christian:

Whole life.

Whitney:

And if there were something that you were holding that I actually needed to know to be a better friend to you.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

And I have somehow found out either directly or indirectly, but, like, years down the road, you were like, bitch, you remember back in fifth grade? Yeah.

Christian:

I never told you. College. I never told you, but

Whitney:

Like, for me, that is a what do you make of this relationship?

Christian:

I remember when you found out that I, like, got hit by that car when I was on my bike. It was years later.

Whitney:

No. It wasn't. It was a while. No. I no.

Whitney:

Because there were It was, like, days.

Christian:

It was a it was there was a time frame. You were, like, why didn't you say any?

Whitney:

Yes. You you wanna know what actually the thing that did it for me?

Christian:

What?

Whitney:

We gonna be messy a little when y'all got engaged.

Christian:

Oh, I I I thought about this earlier.

Whitney:

That. Yeah. Yo. That fucked me up.

Christopher:

I had

Christian:

no idea it

Christopher:

was a day.

Christian:

But, like, I I couldn't be told. You did tell me. It was shortly after that.

Whitney:

Yes. I think it was the same day.

Christian:

It may have been we because we met up for something.

Whitney:

No. I I think I text I I was more clear in person.

Christian:

You were.

Whitney:

But I texted I remember sitting in my office. I had a beautiful corner office, bamboo in the window. And I remember sitting in this office because it was the same office in which I got the mass email

Christopher:

Oh, the mass text.

Whitney:

That you were engaged. Yes. And then in the mass text sorry. It wasn't email.

Christopher:

It was

Whitney:

a text.

Christian:

It was text.

Whitney:

In the mass text, realizing that, oh, so many people knew this was coming.

Christian:

Great. You might not have. I did not. No shade. That was the way your best.

Christian:

And, like, that that factored in.

Whitney:

Right? So that that that that it did factor in for me. Like, okay. For some reason, I don't think Chris understands what best friends are. That's okay.

Whitney:

Everybody don't friend like

Christopher:

we do. No. I don't know. I don't have best friends like that.

Whitney:

Exactly. So that's why I was like Yeah. My best

Christopher:

friend I had do passed away before we even got started.

Whitney:

Right. Yeah. Which is did you did you feel like I held it against you?

Christian:

I didn't.

Whitney:

I tried. I didn't I didn't feel like the need to hold it against you.

Christian:

He does. I don't think he even knew this. So I

Christopher:

don't know. Yeah. Oh. I may have heard some vibes.

Whitney:

No. He knew. I I briefly told him.

Christian:

Oh, you did?

Whitney:

Okay. Years ago.

Christopher:

Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah. But it was also that okay. Yeah. I didn't know it was coming, but, like, she told me

Christian:

Mhmm. In a mass text.

Whitney:

Yeah. And, like, I would I remember sitting in my office, damn near in tears.

Christian:

Because I was like, I fixed it when I got pregnant. You did. I fixed it when I got pregnant. You did. There was no mass text.

Whitney:

There was no mass text.

Christian:

You were first.

Whitney:

Thank you. But it was just like a, oh my god. But, like, we if I had sat on that for years

Christian:

I would never have known.

Whitney:

You would have never have known. And it really it really impacted

Christian:

me, and I had no idea.

Whitney:

For what? And here's the thing. I can't even really tell you, like, the depths of why.

Christian:

I was just like But I knew it didn't. I was like I

Whitney:

think there was also, like, that was also a period of time where, like, we lived in the same city.

Christian:

Yeah. But we weren't seeing each other

Whitney:

that much. We weren't seeing each other that much.

Christopher:

Like, we were

Whitney:

literally having to schedule, like, meetings. And so, like, we weren't even talking as much. But it wasn't, like, because of anything. I think we were just busy. Oh, yeah.

Whitney:

She likes happening. Yeah.

Christopher:

Hell, I

Whitney:

think I was I in grad school or about to go into I think I was I was applying for grad school.

Christian:

That makes sense.

Christopher:

Gotcha. Yeah.

Christian:

And, like,

Whitney:

it was just a lot.

Christian:

It was a lot going on.

Whitney:

Right? And so I think it was for me a marker of, like, distance between us that

Christian:

I was not okay with.

Whitney:

Like, I what I'm not about to cry. I have a tissue. I already have one.

Christian:

Thank you. I have more.

Whitney:

I've cried already. Not during anything y'all have heard. We've had long conversation

Christopher:

before this, but This was a long day.

Whitney:

For one episode. Y'all don't know how long it takes.

Christian:

We're gonna get one episode out of this, though. We're gonna

Christopher:

how long

Christian:

it takes us to produce?

Christopher:

I see her.

Whitney:

This shit got a gestate.

Christian:

But It does.

Whitney:

But, like, I think it it really, for me, hit, like, this distance that I was not comfortable with being away from you, like, emotionally.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

And, yeah, it fucked me up. And I was like, I I was still I think I was still significantly more sassy than I am now, even though I'm pretty sassy. But even in that, I was like, I have to tell her this because it's my best friend. Yeah. Like and I'm like, if I had sat on that, what does that say about, like, what I think about the saliency of our relationship?

Christopher:

Who? Saliency. Saliency. Saliency. Salient?

Christopher:

Salient? Okay.

Christian:

Can I have it can I have it

Whitney:

See, this is one of those things where you read a lot, you just don't know how to work? Like, I don't know how to find it. It's the idea of, like, sustainability or, like, how yeah. I think sustainability is decent.

Christian:

Like I'll take that.

Whitney:

How will this survive? Will it survive?

Christian:

Right? Continue. I I really didn't know what it meant.

Christopher:

It's okay.

Whitney:

I, like, I learned words in context Oh, no. And I can't define them. But, I mean, I know I'm using them for name. Fact correctly. Right.

Whitney:

Okay. Yeah.

Christopher:

I did it with formal gate earlier. I was You did. Let me look this shit up. Hold on.

Christopher:

Yeah. Oh,

Christopher:

I did. I used the right color.

Christian:

And we are training up our toddlers in the way that we have gone

Christopher:

because I was riffing for real. I was just like, I

Christian:

You used the

Whitney:

completely correct. Word.

Christian:

Baby girl already knows the word stabilizer and used it correctly in the sentence and used

Whitney:

And was building.

Christian:

And was building shit at the same time. And I was like,

Christopher:

who taught you that?

Whitney:

Who taught you octagon? But yes. And so, like and I think, like, if I how can I say you're lit and y'all I don't I don't feel like the regular bitches? Okay? Like, this is why my friend group is amazing.

Whitney:

There's there's several people in it, but, like, it's I don't have surface relationships. Yeah. It's like, oh, yeah. We're gonna hang

Christian:

out sometime. Okay. Yeah. But when we hang

Whitney:

out, we're gonna talk. Like, we're gonna Right.

Christian:

We're gonna down to business.

Whitney:

Yes. Like, how are you for real and not this surface level shit? How are you processing your existence?

Christian:

Like, what you're going through? What you're struggling with?

Whitney:

And it's

Christian:

it's happy shit too. Like, you

Whitney:

know, it's never just old saying something. You know? Yeah. But, like, I have deep relationships. Right.

Whitney:

And if I can't trust the people closest to me with the depths of my emotion, then you can't be that fucking close to

Christopher:

me. Yeah.

Whitney:

And I think if I had sat on that, that would actually speak more volumes about how far I was from you.

Christian:

Hey. You know? Yeah.

Christopher:

Yeah. And

Whitney:

so, like, I think when when we do a lot of avoiding, it is I say we.

Christian:

We as a human condition.

Whitney:

Yeah. Because I was like, I'm listen. If anybody's gonna have an attachment style that's avoiding, it ain't she. Okay? No, ma'am.

Whitney:

Like, I am I listen. I have taken tests. They say I'm secure, but that's because I've done a lot of work. A bitch was anxious. Okay?

Whitney:

Oh, Jesus, baby. I ain't shush. And so and even still, like, this shit crops up. But the the issue an anxiety has its own. Like, anxious attachment has its own set of complete and utter bullshit.

Christian:

Absolutely.

Whitney:

Complete and utter bullshit. But since we're talking about, like, avoidance in this, like, when you do that, it is it's literally feeling a lack of safety.

Christian:

Yeah. Yep. And so I think and and I've Chris and I are reading a book together called Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski. And one of the things that she talks about like, so so the books the gen the general gist of the book is about women's sexuality and, you know, there there's parts of it that address, like, obviously, the physical parts, but also, like, your brain and context and all of that. And so there's a there she uses, like, these avatars for different people and tells people stories.

Christian:

Right? So she's like a a collection of people combined into one to represent. Right? And so it's I'm gonna make up a name. So Anne has issues.

Christian:

Right? And Anne therapist. This is

Whitney:

a very therapist driven methodology when writing a book.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. That's why

Christian:

I asked. So, like, Anne is going through this situation and, you know, at some point, the Emily asks her, so do you do you trust your partner? She's like, oh, I trust her with her my whole life. And she's like, do you trust yourself?

Whitney:

Ding ding ding ding ding ding.

Christian:

And so I think when I think of, like, my avoidant behavior, it is less less about not trusting the other person as much as, like, not trusting I mean, I was conditioned not to trust me.

Whitney:

No. That's real.

Christian:

I was conditioned not to So many of us were. And so it's Your

Christopher:

heart is desperately wicked.

Christian:

Yeah. All that shit. And I you're a filthy rag and formed an inequity and I hope y'all

Whitney:

can hear my heavy eye roll.

Christian:

And, you know, even

Whitney:

But yes.

Christian:

Even the good that you do is bad. All, like, all that all that all that. Right? And so, like, that is the that's on the bitch is still ungagged in the back of my head. And so Mhmm.

Christian:

You know, she rather, she's still spewing this stuff at me. Even though she's not in the driver's seat, she she's still loud. And so, like, that is part of the the resistance. It's like, I how do I trust other people when I don't trust me?

Whitney:

No. But that's that's it. And I think that that hearkens back to something I said in episode, I hate quoting myself. That's such a

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Stupid ass thing to do. But in episode one, I only know that because I listened to it yesterday, but

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. That's the

Whitney:

idea of, like, when when people say, I don't trust people.

Christian:

Yeah. It's like Right.

Whitney:

It's never about the like, literally, it's never about the other person. Y'all please go read the four agreements. Like, it's a quick read. I read it on

Christopher:

a

Whitney:

plane to London once, start to finish.

Christian:

Like, the thing is

Whitney:

is you don't trust you. Right? Like, when we are not trusting other people, we are not trusting ourselves with the outcome. Like, how are we gonna handle the outcome? We're not trusting our emotional stability.

Whitney:

We are not trusting our own resilience. Like, we are not trusting that we can survive if the fantasy doesn't come true. Right. Right? Like, the fantasy we've made in our mind about people, whatever our projections are, we are not trusting that, like, if we see them in their totality, then we can hang it hang it.

Christian:

That ties back to what you said earlier about spirituality and people not believing the stuff that they believe is true because they need to control you because they can't just trust you to, like, take it and be okay.

Christopher:

Right. Yeah. Like, they they they don't necessarily trust that. That's why discipleship in that you know, I'm using hot air quotes, looks more like indoctrination.

Christopher:

Mhmm. Mhmm. You know?

Christopher:

And you're not the word for disciple, when Jesus when Jesus said, you know, make disciples. Yeah. In Matthew 28, that word is the the root of that word is where we get the word math and mathematics. Like, so he's What's

Whitney:

the root? Do you know?

Christopher:

Mathletes. That's the word that's the word that they use for

Whitney:

disciples. Mathletes.

Christian:

In Greek?

Christopher:

Or

Christopher:

Yeah. In in Greek.

Whitney:

Oh, you're learning this today.

Christian:

Mathhetese.

Christopher:

The mathlete. Yeah.

Christian:

No. That's that's say let say more.

Christopher:

So you. You know, the mathlete like, that word and mathematics in the Greek share a similar root.

Christian:

Yes.

Christopher:

And so it was about, you know, learning. Discipling is about, again, calculating, thinking. Mhmm. So, you know, like, you know, so you you have that that that etymological sense of that word. Mhmm.

Christopher:

And what we don't do, we don't teach people how to sing.

Christian:

Right. We don't people we don't teach people

Christopher:

how to solve. We we regurgitate right.

Whitney:

We regurgitate. Yeah.

Christopher:

A a a framework. We hand them a framework Yep. And encourage them with the fear of hell to

Christian:

Encourage them.

Christopher:

Ingratiate themselves within that framework.

Whitney:

Right. Threaten.

Christian:

So I was about to say threaten, coerce. Right.

Christopher:

Coercen. Yeah. We coerce them with the whole concept of ill hell to

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christopher:

To make themselves aligned. And that's what we also have in the church. And I've seen that the past of assimilation. Not to say again, another thing

Christopher:

Yep.

Christopher:

Yep. Yep. Where we're we're making everybody the same. And so this whole Christian church model is built off of things that we've developed since the industrial revolution. Yep.

Christopher:

Mass producing. Mhmm. And homogenization. Homogenization.

Christian:

Standardization.

Christopher:

And standardization and universalization. So everybody's gotta believe and think and behave and say the right things.

Christian:

The same things.

Christopher:

Because the same things Yeah. In the you know, so that we know that our faith is valid.

Whitney:

That's you know what that immediately makes me think of? First of all, brother, where's my shoe? You need You're too far. I just wanna chunk something that you

Christian:

just need.

Whitney:

Yes. You made a point.

Christian:

You need a point.

Whitney:

Yeah. Points were made. But it makes me think of Right. Specifically, like so there's a church in Dallas Yeah. Where, like, the pastor we grew up

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Mhmm. Came under.

Christian:

Yep. Okay.

Whitney:

Prominent leader who's obviously Yeah.

Christopher:

I know

Christopher:

what you're talking about. Yeah.

Whitney:

Yes. I'm I'm being vague on purpose. We all know these names. So the pastor that I was under in college also

Christian:

Oh, same

Whitney:

dude. That fame. Absolutely.

Christopher:

Same cult.

Christian:

Same same

Whitney:

coats. Different branch. Which is funny.

Christian:

Like, this club had, like,

Whitney:

the more club Jesus flare.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Whereas, like, our church had at

Christopher:

some

Christian:

point, I think

Whitney:

our church was definitely when

Christopher:

it was

Whitney:

in the payday In

Christopher:

the nineties.

Christopher:

Club. In the eighties and nineties?

Whitney:

I don't know about the eighties. I I don't have no memory.

Christopher:

Yes. Yeah.

Christian:

Not at church. I don't know.

Whitney:

I mean, dude, my auntie was buried there,

Christopher:

but I

Christopher:

don't know if it was No.

Christian:

I don't know if I would call it

Christopher:

It was early nineties. Yeah.

Christian:

White club Jesus? Nineties club Jesus? Maybe, like, underage club Jesus? Because I feel like the club bit was more for the youth.

Whitney:

I mean, college age students ain't that much older than youth.

Christian:

No. But I feel like like more of the church had it for you. Right? That's fair.

Whitney:

That's fair.

Christopher:

Like, it

Christian:

was it it it infiltrated more of

Whitney:

But the pastor was younger. Yes.

Christopher:

Yes.

Christian:

Yeah. So and

Whitney:

not like a youth, but he was like was he in his forties? Thirties.

Christopher:

Thirties and forties?

Whitney:

He's in his forties. Forties.

Christopher:

I think

Christian:

it was forties. Yep.

Whitney:

Yeah. Meanwhile, our pastor was in our forties when we were Babies? Yeah.

Christian:

Mhmm. Yes.

Whitney:

That's in our forties. We ain't got there yet.

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christian:

In his forties when we were chill like, small. We are not not. We are not unto.

Whitney:

But it's it was always so interesting to me because the the style, a, the belief, the style, the structure, and that's why it was easy transition for me.

Christian:

Yeah.

Christopher:

Right? Because it

Whitney:

was like, oh, I grew up under this. I love, like, at the time. Right? Like, I You

Christian:

appreciated it and enjoyed it.

Whitney:

Yeah. I did.

Christian:

Right? And okay. I'm coming over here, and this feels more age appropriate because club Jesus.

Christopher:

And I think you need

Whitney:

club Jesus because the girls was dressed and lined up at the door.

Christopher:

Yes. Oh my god.

Christian:

Okay. My god. It was an experience. You had to be there. Did you come with me?

Christian:

I once at least. Oh, it was At least one

Christopher:

of those services

Whitney:

because we couldn't fit everybody in one building. They finally built a new building. I've never stepped foot in there and don't desire to. But and, like, no shade to everybody that's there.

Christian:

Y'all, you know, I'm glad you found God in a hopeless place. We found God in a clubby place.

Whitney:

Okay. But, like, that speaks exactly to what what happened?

Christian:

We take that the last time

Whitney:

you said it wasn't God in a clubby place, but we definitely we have definitely loved in a hopeless place.

Christian:

Yeah. I it's happened at least twice. We clearly like that song. Keep going. Sorry.

Whitney:

Yes. We do. But but I think, like, that that was the most vivid image because that is exactly what discipleship looks like. Copy and paste. Copy and paste.

Christopher:

I'll just paste. Copy and paste.

Christian:

Copy and paste.

Christopher:

And you get to add And you can have certain creativity within the framework.

Whitney:

Correct. Yeah. You get to add your personality

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christian:

To a degree. Yes.

Christopher:

To To a degree.

Christian:

To a degree.

Christopher:

It couldn't be too much you.

Whitney:

Yeah. Well, it

Christopher:

lost you as filtered through the lens of the framework we're handing to you.

Christian:

I don't know.

Whitney:

I'm a say the pastor back there, it was a lot of him, but there was a lot. And well, I mean, he he was dope in so many ways.

Christopher:

Exceptions for the leader.

Whitney:

Lit. That's what

Christopher:

I mean.

Whitney:

So but when you go out and you become the leader, now you

Christian:

You can flex it a little bit differently.

Whitney:

Right. Right.

Christian:

Yeah. But doctrinally

Christopher:

Doctrinally. You

Christian:

gotta stay alive.

Christopher:

And I think that's part of what really made me really sick as I went on. And when I say sick, just in the metaphor, I just really was tired of it. Yeah. Seeing these

Whitney:

I'm so tired.

Christopher:

Seeing these cultural liberal socially culturally liberal churches that still had the theological conservatism.

Whitney:

Which is crazy. They don't go.

Christopher:

They don't. But because we got smoke machines and laser lights, I can blind

Christian:

you all the machines.

Whitney:

From the ceiling.

Christopher:

Right. Place from so I can have all of these theatrics. I can be liberal in all of the ways except for the part that really matters.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher:

And so we can have we can have casual Sundays. We can have throwback jerseys. We can have Greek divine asset, but I'm still preaching that you're going to hell if you don't if you ain't saved. Like

Christian:

Or if you or if you go to the football game instead of coming to church.

Whitney:

Go to yeah. Sorry. Go to the club on Saturday night.

Christopher:

Right. Don't make it to church on Sunday. Exactly. So it's

Christian:

so tickets to the Beyonce concert because those are so expensive. How dare you give her your money instead of me? I'm

Whitney:

not that expensive. I'm free.

Christopher:

So Whatever. Christian Moxie. Yeah. It just drives me off a wall to see that and to allow for the creativity and the status to happen that could only have been not only, but but in large part has been pushed forth the creativity that you see in the worship service by gay people Yeah. And they're still preaching.

Christian:

Well, love.

Christopher:

And your sermons.

Christopher:

Well, love.

Christopher:

Church wouldn't be fun.

Christian:

Stop that young Well

Christopher:

Without these

Christian:

The way that we require, specifically in in the black church, the way that we require queer people to bifurcate themselves, to bring the stuff that we like. Bifurcate. Right.

Christopher:

Church wouldn't be fun.

Whitney:

I love that word.

Christian:

To to bring themselves that it's like, bring the fun to the church, but leave your partner at home. Right? Like, that energy is so fucked up.

Christopher:

It is very

Christian:

And then if you try to be a black person in any other context, you need to, like, we need to cleave some of that blackness off. Because that's to bring bring

Whitney:

But without the black.

Christian:

Well, we need you

Whitney:

Or less black. We need enough black to be cool, but not an like, not too much that it's confrontational.

Christian:

We need enough black so the song sound good. Yeah. Yeah. He wants you to bring your runs.

Whitney:

Bring black notes. Bring your runs. Yes. Bring The tone.

Christian:

Bring your tone. Bring Rhythm. Bring the Help

Whitney:

us clap on the two and four.

Christian:

Bring your angst. Yes. Who are dry ass song. Yep. Bring your angst.

Christian:

Bring that.

Whitney:

Right.

Christian:

The pain. We wanna feel it. We wanna feel things. Yeah. Don't talk about why you feel that.

Christian:

Yep. The Mhmm. So, again, I'm a one more time because when he when he was talking about assimilation, we're going back to central faith. This is one of my quotes. Assimilation, one of the greatest scams ever, loads us into a false and secure security by enticing us to believe that minimizing our blackness means that we will magically be accepted by anti black structures.

Christian:

Look.

Whitney:

Bullshit and poverty

Christopher:

and bullshit. And we and we stay trying to do it.

Christian:

We stay I

Whitney:

mean, that's that's the nature of

Christopher:

the flesh. We got niggas in the worshiping arts ministry, but nary a nigga that's over discipleship or teaching.

Christian:

That's what gets me when

Whitney:

these churches claim multiculturality and their only leaders are in music.

Christian:

Or children's ministry. Right. Everyone's Oh, children's ministry.

Whitney:

You can sign. You can nurture.

Christian:

You can you can sing, and you can and you can mammy.

Christopher:

Right. But you cannot you

Christopher:

can mammy.

Christian:

Chucking jiving, you can mammy. Ain't shit change.

Christopher:

You cannot govern.

Christian:

That's all you can

Christopher:

inseminate. Right.

Whitney:

We don't actually wanna hear your thoughts.

Christopher:

And I'm sorry.

Christian:

What what what just happened? What?

Christopher:

What I mean to say I missed it. Teach.

Whitney:

Yeah. How do

Christopher:

I impart?

Christopher:

Okay. That's

Christopher:

the word I was going for.

Whitney:

Did you say inseminate? Inseminate.

Christian:

I was like, what the thinking mix in the city. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, those are hard conversations we sometimes have to have with our churches and or leave.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Or I was about to say or not. Like and I think that that is again, it's information.

Christian:

It's it's how how important to you is the relationship and what kind of late relationship do you want to have. Right.

Christopher:

Exactly. And for all the churches angst against the culture, y'all sure do and invite it.

Christian:

Only the person that make it fun. Right.

Christopher:

Yeah. So I was like, you don't really have a real problem with culture.

Christian:

Holy

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

Whatever the fuck that means.

Whitney:

Uh-huh.

Christopher:

But the culture is also sexually repressed. And you guess what? They got their fault.

Whitney:

It's what? Sexually repressed.

Christopher:

Oh, gotcha. Repressed.

Whitney:

My mom said speak more clearly.

Christian:

That's just that's just a reminder. She didn't say it again. I just

Christopher:

went to Rome study. But, you know, the, you know, the culture is also sexually oppressed. Repressed.

Christian:

Repressed. Yeah.

Christopher:

And they got that from the church. Yeah. So you're talking about the church is this and the cultures. It's just

Whitney:

like, no. They're not separate.

Christopher:

The culture whatever the culture is wrestling with in terms of its own liberation with it, it has received from the theology of the church. And and you want to make the church separate from the culture and it's not.

Christian:

It's never gonna be.

Christopher:

It's not.

Christian:

It ain't never been.

Christopher:

They both get the conversation. And the problems that you see in the culture is because they see they they they saw they saw the church first.

Christian:

You know? That's real. You just said they're in conversation, and all I could think again was telephone. The way that the stuff did the culture is like, hey. We this is me.

Christian:

I am queer. I like people who look like me and who don't. Mhmm. But you keep telling me that that is wrong. And I you told me God made me, though, and I'm confused.

Christian:

And the church is like, God said it, and I believe it. It is like But the Bible says it very My mom said

Whitney:

that wasn't about queerness, though. I forget what it was about. But she was just like, the Bible is very clear about it. No. It's saying you don't even have a clear interpretation.

Christian:

It's not.

Whitney:

Like It's not. The tradition that you're reading is not. It's not. Lead? What do I Like I said, it wasn't about queerness.

Christopher:

No. No. I'm sorry.

Christian:

If you lead with that, I'm almost 99% sure whatever you're about to say is ignorant.

Whitney:

Well, I agree because, also, if if that is it for you, what that has indicated to me is that you have shut off a portion of your critical thinking

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

To be completely reliant on something you don't even fully understand because you can't fucking critically think. That's

Christian:

called theology.

Christopher:

Christian Smith says whatever the Bible says, it says something else.

Christian:

Sometimes I I fuck with that.

Christopher:

So, like Christian

Christian:

is something else.

Christopher:

This is why self examination is is critical.

Whitney:

It it is. And externalize.

Christopher:

Because the Bible hands a hands us a multitude of different voices and perspectives.

Christian:

Well, anything can be honestly, we could take any book, any book, and use it for anything we want. Anything we want.

Christopher:

Anything we want.

Christian:

Like, you can In order ice and dice it, pull it apart, put it back together, use it out of context, use it in context, but out of full context. Like

Whitney:

and that's really like, okay. So if I were to write a book about I'm I'm I'm listen. My analogy, I'm free balling. Alright. Like, if I were to write a book Mhmm.

Whitney:

About how to buy a house

Christian:

Yep. That Context.

Whitney:

Context matters.

Christopher:

Huge.

Whitney:

Because did I write that book in 1953?

Christian:

Did you write it in America or Canada?

Whitney:

Did I write?

Christopher:

Oh, no. Yeah. That

Christian:

did you did you write it in Nigeria? Or or Kenya?

Whitney:

As a person, am I a white man who doesn't have any blocks Right. Into getting financing or having enough money to buy it outright? Because if I wrote it in the dictionary, we'll pull it. Exactly. Mhmm.

Whitney:

Context always I am a baby. I'm a context girly. I fucking love context. Like, it is it's literally okay. Anybody that's ever worked with me knows.

Whitney:

Like, yes. I'm gonna use more words than you think are necessary because I think you need to know the context.

Christian:

Right. I would also like for

Whitney:

you to use more words when you're describing it. The context.

Christian:

So you don't

Whitney:

have to ask questions because I need to know the context.

Christopher:

Somebody told me on three, so you could've said that in less words. No. I couldn't because I would have.

Whitney:

Right. Right.

Christian:

It's like My context matters. I let you caught

Whitney:

the vision off rip.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

But somebody else needed that context. Also, why do y'all think everything revolves around you? You know what? Right. You are only the main character in your story.

Whitney:

We double back. That part. Only your story. Only your story. Other people have different needs, right, and requirements.

Whitney:

Mhmm.

Christian:

And Chris's need is to be clear.

Whitney:

Same, actually. Yeah.

Christopher:

And I ain't even say that much. I said I'm

Christian:

sure you didn't.

Christopher:

I didn't. No. I I it wasn't

Whitney:

a fun time around.

Christopher:

Do. Sometimes you but

Whitney:

you will know there's

Christopher:

no fault. Times I could be verbose. Yeah. But that was not one of them times. Long way.

Christopher:

You would've

Whitney:

been Like, nigga, if you're dumb, just say that.

Christopher:

Alright. That's like, look. If you don't wanna read, then get the fuck off this app.

Whitney:

It's all this is a word.

Christopher:

This is threads, nigga.

Whitney:

Right. It's a fucking word.

Christian:

Saying that's

Christopher:

words that you did in your fucking original point.

Christopher:

Well

Christopher:

Alright, dog. I'm I'm hot.

Christian:

He got on he got on a jacket. He got to take

Christopher:

over to

Christian:

a man. I'm like, oh, can't even he can't even relieve it. But, no, that's that's really real.

Whitney:

Like and so I think even in just to progress the conversation, like, even in, decentering yourself. So knowing that in order to have this conversation, you're gonna have to have two main characters on two separate context, two separate life experiences.

Christian:

Have two POVs in the story.

Whitney:

That's it. Come together Yep. To make one through line. Mhmm. How do we go about doing that?

Whitney:

Right.

Christopher:

That is acknowledge Indeed. You said something about two opposing POVs

Christian:

I did.

Christopher:

And learning how to converge so that we have one story

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

One through life. Together.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher:

And I was thinking about the origin of the Passover story.

Christopher:

Oh. And

Christopher:

then we came across how Yeah. The Passover story is really two earlier stories that they decided to bring together to make a unifying narrative. There's a lot of

Christian:

two communities. Yeah.

Christopher:

So that was rituals that was practiced among the the goat herders. I wanna say it. The pastoralist.

Christian:

Yeah. Uh-huh. As

Christopher:

you were the shepherd shepherds.

Christian:

Yep. That'll work.

Christopher:

And then that was a narrative and rituals that were perpetuated among the agriculturalists. Yep. So you got the whole the sacrifice in the lamb, and then you have the feast of unleavened bread. So you got those two Yeah. Rituals that were practiced among the

Christian:

people groups of people.

Christopher:

Super crucial people in the same region. Yeah. And it was like, look, we want to coexist. Mhmm. So what do we do?

Christopher:

We make a unifying story to that encapsulates both of our rituals. So the s so as to say that by this one narrative, we are becoming a new kind of people.

Christian:

Yeah.

Christopher:

And so that is that is essentially what we are because we have never evolved beyond our need to have a narrative to keep having our world around us.

Christian:

That's good. Right?

Christopher:

And so

Christian:

Because that's now that you had they got to the bottom of what they wanted.

Whitney:

Yes. That's what I was about to say. You have to know what's important to you to know what you need to integrate.

Christian:

They their goal was not to master or to conquer Yes. One of the other groups. Yep. Their goal was to come together. So once they identified, we wanna come together.

Christian:

It's like, what can we pull

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

Each of our stories that will give us a unifying story that we can begin to tell ourselves Absolutely. So that we will feel like one.

Christopher:

And that is even with the even with, like you said, with Genesis, when we came to Abel, because Cain was a shepherd. And Abel well, now Abel was the what? Cain was the one that did the the agricultural. Okay.

Christian:

I remember.

Christopher:

He did the he he tilled the ground and all the stuff, and Abel was the one that did the shepherds. And and apparently, God approved Abel, and now Cain and then Cain killed Abel. And but God was like, why did you do that? All you have to do was

Christopher:

Yeah.

Christopher:

Over again and come back and reassess and re present it. You didn't have to

Whitney:

Or you have to kill him, dummy.

Christopher:

You had to kill him.

Christian:

It's like you

Christopher:

And so it You

Christian:

made him mad face. You made him worse.

Christopher:

It shows even in in the biblical narrative, the tension between these two competing rituals narratives Yeah. And showing how the god is the god of both.

Whitney:

Wait a minute. Y'all was came actually being avoided?

Christian:

I was literally right there.

Whitney:

Like, right there Instead of

Christian:

actually He he killed his

Whitney:

brother Instead.

Christian:

Instead of having a hard conversation.

Christopher:

Of having a hard conversation with God.

Whitney:

Yo. Avoidance gets weird. Conversation with With

Christopher:

his brother.

Whitney:

Even a conversation with his brother.

Christian:

He was avoiding a hard conversation with God and killed his brother Yeah. Who avoided more.

Christopher:

Because God was the one that rejected you, not your brother.

Whitney:

It's crazy to shit you'll do just to avoid a difficult conversation or avoid a difficult reflection

Christian:

to avoid taking accountability. Yes. Accountability. That's crazy to lynch niggas will go

Christopher:

And God came to him and he was like, hey, man. If you were if you would if you would just do verse right, you would be accepted.

Whitney:

That's it.

Christopher:

But but sin is crouching at your door.

Whitney:

I think about this also in terms of, like, romantic relationships. Right? So a lot of I'm just gonna throw out the it's a brief general statistic. Mhmm.

Christian:

Love the numbers.

Whitney:

No. It's not a number. Sorry. It's a measurement. Oh.

Whitney:

But if you are a black woman Yep. Who is likely to like, if you are murdered, the odds that you will be murdered like, you're the greatest odd of you being murdered is by an intimate partner. Yep. Right? And oftentimes, it is because people are avoiding really looking at themselves Wow.

Christian:

Taking accountability and doing the work.

Whitney:

This is not just true with male female relationships. Yeah. Like, domestic violence exists. It's rampant in queer communities.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Right? But this idea of, like, I'm just gonna hit you. Like or take your life or whatever. That'll make it better. Like, I'm going to figure out how

Christian:

to shut you up. That'll fix it.

Whitney:

Because right. If you can't

Christian:

talk, then it's fixed. Right. Or if you stop talking, then it's fixed. Yeah.

Christopher:

Then it's fixed.

Whitney:

Or the, like, or the, like, man, you always wanna talk and you stop. Like, it's it's that. Right. Right? And so what that that says to me is when you are in that space, there is not you're not working towards a common through line.

Whitney:

No. No. Right? And so and whether it Your goal is domination.

Christopher:

Right.

Whitney:

Exactly. And whether it is a intimate relationship, a like, a romantic relationship or a otherwise personal or professional relationship, you gotta figure out like, even at work. Right? Like, when you have to have a difficult conversation at work, the idea is this shit can't keep going like this.

Christopher:

Right. And and I think that's like you said, it's it's one of those things. It's like we can get hung up even in our this is for me, in our deconstruction Mhmm. In our analysis and stuff to try to get a precise understanding of the truth so that we move forward. Yeah.

Christopher:

And that's not necessary. No. Mhmm. You will never have a precise understanding of

Whitney:

the truth.

Christian:

People don't even always have their

Whitney:

own precise understanding of what the fuck they doing.

Christopher:

Right. So what you really need to what you really need to get down to is what is important to you Yes. To continue the narrative of your life.

Whitney:

Yes.

Christopher:

And it's not going to look like what it used to. But at this point, we need to know enough about what's true for us so that we could function together.

Christian:

Together. Together. And

Whitney:

I think that's when we and I think it's it's such a common conversation when you're dealing with couples

Christopher:

to

Whitney:

try to get people on the same page. Right? Like, we are two players on the same team and not opposing teams. Right?

Christopher:

But,

Whitney:

like, we don't think about that grand scheme.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Right? And I think our if I can go on my little tangent, somebody locate my soapbox. But, like, as a society, right, especially in this context

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Where we are so divided, that's crazy because at the end of the day, we could be finding the okay. No. No. No. What what's our through line?

Whitney:

Our through line is we wanna live somewhere safe. Our through line is we don't wanna be in poverty. Our through line is I just really think none of us really want that at school.

Christian:

I don't think anybody wants I don't think anybody wants to Right.

Christopher:

To bring

Whitney:

now the how is where we get sticky, but I think

Christopher:

that can

Whitney:

be a through line. Right? Like, a through line is we want to live

Christopher:

No one wants to have an abortion. Nobody.

Whitney:

Nobody nobody wants to have to have that. Right?

Christian:

Right. Nobody wants to have to consider it. Right. That's not like I wasn't you know what I wanna do today?

Whitney:

Drive to New Mexico and get an abortion.

Christopher:

I wanna

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

Literate a blastocyst. That's my desire.

Whitney:

Right. No. No. That's not that's not real. Right?

Whitney:

And so, like, there are several through lines that are true. Like, we all want to live lives where we feel fulfilled.

Christian:

Yep. Right.

Whitney:

Where we are thriving. Yep. Right? Where we are well.

Christian:

Yeah. And if we all have

Whitney:

that through line, what what is so difficult about having the conversation? The problem is niggas forget that we got a common through line. Like, like,

Christian:

you forget that we're not actually if we turn everybody else into monsters.

Christopher:

We become so entrenched in all narratives.

Whitney:

Right. Or even at work. It's like a, oh, it's you versus me. No, baby. We got this work to do.

Whitney:

We got this deliverable. Right. Yep. And we gotta get this deliverable delivered. Okay?

Christopher:

Yeah. So what can

Christopher:

we do

Christian:

to do with your work? Static is is actually making this

Whitney:

inefficient. So

Christopher:

Right. We gotta we gotta get through the shift enough to hand off to the next shift.

Christian:

Yeah. Do. So, like, this actually happened to me at work. So we were we're working on a project. Somebody needs something by February 4.

Christian:

And to do it completely, right, in its totality, the final state of this thing, it takes a lot of work for one specific person who currently has a backlog. Right?

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

There ain't nothing we can do about the backlog. There's nobody who is currently equipped to assist this person in what they're trying to do for the most part. Like, they they need their hands on specific items. Right?

Christopher:

Right. This

Whitney:

is a terrible structure for Oh,

Christian:

it's it's it it's because we have a new system. And Correct. We got we we learned everything in silos to just get the system to run.

Whitney:

Got you.

Christian:

But now that this person this person has a lot of the skills that we need to, like, do specific projects. Yeah. And so I was like, yes. I want to learn to do that. Three other people want to learn to do that.

Christian:

We ain't

Whitney:

got time to cross train because they're mandated.

Christian:

Yep. Here we are. Right? And so it was like, okay. It's unrealistic to add this person to get this done in two weeks.

Christian:

Mhmm. Not because they are incapable, because they have other deliverables. It's just not we're where we're at. Okay?

Christopher:

We're bottlenecked.

Christian:

We're bottlenecked. Right? And so me and the other person on the team were like, look. Are there options for us to get this data somewhere else?

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

And so we started looking. And this is a guy. Now we happens to go to the same college that me and Chris went to. Now he graduated much earlier. He's a Gen Xer.

Christian:

Mhmm. But we don't see eye to eye on some stuff. I have zero doubts about that. He's a white man. He is in his fifties.

Christian:

He has enough money to do lots of things that put him in a particular bracket where I'm pretty sure I know who he voted for. Right? But we don't talk about that at work. Is his wife white or Asian?

Whitney:

White. Okay. Yes. This is still true.

Christian:

Yes. Yeah. It's still true. Everybody white. He's but we we can work together.

Christian:

It's like, look, he got a problem. He needs to populate this dashboard. Yep. And I need them to get off my coworkers neck because she can only move so fast. Alright?

Christian:

And I can't do it.

Christopher:

And she got other shit going on outside of work that requires her

Christian:

Attention. Right? And y'all not y'all not about to drive you know, I'm about to drive my girl crazy if I can help. Right.

Whitney:

And because

Christian:

then in turn, you drive Me and him still started going back and forth. He's like, you know what? He's like and I'm like, okay. Tell me what's missing. How much data do you need?

Christian:

He's like, I need this and this. And I'm like, was this over here? He was like, oh, I can pull that in from over here. Bet. Okay.

Christian:

Now what's missing?

Whitney:

Mhmm.

Christian:

Well, you got data over here, and I could pull it from there, but it's missing for these two months. How much work is it to copy it? A little bit, but I can do it. Mhmm. Now we've pieced together what they need, and they're good for February 4.

Christian:

Look at God. It ain't perfect, and it ain't gonna last forever.

Whitney:

Right. But they accomplish.

Christian:

There's a work Mhmm. Because we figured look. I this is what I got. Yep. This is what you got.

Christian:

Let's figure it out. Let's make it happen because we have a we have a deliverable.

Whitney:

Right. It's literally a workaround.

Christian:

It we do it all the time in our

Whitney:

professional lives, and we never think Oh. How to apply workarounds in our personal lives. And oftentimes, when you're in relationship with people, maybe some shit just not like, some shit ain't gonna line up. Right. It's just not.

Whitney:

You're two different people.

Christopher:

Collaboration will always trump domination.

Whitney:

It will. And so what is the workaround? Relationship, it will. Right. What workaround can we create?

Christian:

This is a good question.

Whitney:

And even in your workaround, like, even to get to a workaround in, like, your scenario, Christian, the first guy has to say, I don't have capacity.

Christian:

Yeah. Right? Mhmm.

Whitney:

That's self advocacy.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Right? So self advocacy is such an important part. Like, you which in order to advocate for yourself, you gotta know what the fuck you need. Yeah. And we've been saying that all episode.

Whitney:

But, like, you have to know what you need and then say, oh, know what you need and know where your limitations are. Yeah. Right. And then communicate those things.

Christian:

Yeah.

Whitney:

That's all self advocacy is. But communicating them honestly, oftentimes, we get to the first question, the first why Yeah. And we stop. It's like, no. No.

Whitney:

No. That's not the thing you actually need. Yeah. You're like, oh, I need a thousand dollars. Do you?

Whitney:

What do you need a thousand dollars for? Right. Mhmm. Oh, well, you know, I need a new, I don't know, carburetor. I don't

Christian:

y'all just go with it. Talked by phones earlier. That's fine. Okay. I like this.

Christian:

This is

Whitney:

the thing I know. Phones.

Christopher:

I'm sorry.

Christian:

It's like do not I need a new phone.

Whitney:

I need a new phone.

Christian:

Oh, well, what kind of phone do you need? Oh, you know,

Whitney:

I need that that Samsung because fuck Apple. I need that Samsung Galaxy Fuck

Christian:

all of these niggas. S Honestly.

Whitney:

Super duper. And Oh, this it's like, oh, actually, I have one of those Yeah. Laying here. Now I can meet your need. Did I have a thousand dollars lying around to give you?

Christian:

No. But I happen to have a phone. But I had a extra

Whitney:

phone that meet it that meet it that met the thing.

Christian:

That's what you met the need.

Whitney:

That you yeah. But that thing, that's what happened.

Christian:

That's what happened to you.

Christopher:

Oh, so

Christian:

Absolutely what happened to your brain.

Whitney:

But, like, that's you know what I'm saying? So you have to

Christopher:

get

Whitney:

clear Yeah. On what your needs are so you actually

Christian:

get your needs met. Yeah. And I

Christopher:

mean

Christian:

that Right. That's I think that is probably one of the most things about important things about I feel statements is that one once you acknowledge what the actual feeling is, you can see what the need is. Exactly. Because all of that other stuff, until you get down to the real need, is a collection of wants. Yes.

Christian:

But they require other people to behave in ways that you can't control. Control. And so when you get down to the need, it's like, look, this is this is this is what I need.

Whitney:

Right.

Christian:

Okay?

Christopher:

Right.

Christian:

And they'll be like, you know what? I can I can figure that out? Yeah. That Right.

Christopher:

I

Christian:

can figure out how to get there. Yeah. Yeah. I I I can't I cannot do that thing you want, but I can figure out how to get you to what you need. Yeah.

Whitney:

What's okay. Can I give a can I go ahead?

Christopher:

I was gonna say as much as if as much as people use the Bible to perpetuate learned helplessness, the Bible also gives us a route to own ourselves in self advocacy. Mhmm. You know, I was just thinking about, you know, when Moses when God called Moses and God said, who do you who do I say sent me? Mhmm. And you tell them, I am that I am.

Christian:

Mhmm.

Christopher:

And it's just thinking about the scene of going in to Faroe and Faroe asked you to, who sent you? I am.

Christian:

I see.

Christopher:

I Yeah. I am that I am simply. It's just like

Whitney:

Nigga, what are you talking about?

Christopher:

It's like, what? You

Christian:

said yourself.

Christopher:

I am my own authority. Yeah. I came here to deliver the Israelites. And it's like Yeah. Wow.

Christopher:

That's crazy.

Whitney:

Right. Also, the boldness of you.

Christopher:

The boldness of

Christian:

you. The audacity.

Christopher:

And so it's it's almost like God is even though God is presented as this external entity, it is the narrative is introducing the concept that I work as you through you.

Whitney:

Right.

Christopher:

And you have to own your part in this narrative. I won't liberate you from you.

Christian:

Yep. Without you. Without

Whitney:

you.

Christopher:

Yeah. So advocate for yourself.

Whitney:

Advocate for yourself. You know, it was just one of those things, like, you have to be clear about what the need Yeah. Really is so we can meet

Christopher:

The need.

Whitney:

The need. And once we got to the need okay. Now now we're just gonna try shit. Because now it's experimentation.

Christian:

And I think that's the other thing that for me that is uncomfortable. Yeah. It is it's for Chris too. We are

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

We are perfectionists.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

When we can't do it right the first time, we only wanna do it.

Christopher:

Yeah. But I won't please get no more. I I played a couple more times, and I was like, you know, once I realized or since that the shit is rigged.

Christian:

But is it rigged?

Christopher:

But I

Christian:

don't know. I and I guess that's what I was gonna say. It's not just about

Christopher:

If you

Whitney:

have a common through line, it's not rigged.

Christian:

That's what I was gonna say. It's not just about being rigged. Like, there is a there is a there is a tendency, and I can we are married, so I'm talking about us.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Christian:

There's a tendency for the both of us to struggle to con like, to struggle with the process of experiment. Yeah. Right? Right. Because we want to plan out the thing and execute the thing and have the thing work.

Whitney:

That's not realistic in every situation.

Christian:

Aware. But that's what we want. Yeah. Right? And so when it comes to

Christopher:

Especially if we feel like we're not being novel in our methodology.

Christian:

Right. It's like this should work.

Christopher:

It's not like it's not like it's unprecedented.

Christian:

What the

Whitney:

fuck is it's my least favorite word

Christian:

in the English language. But again I hate the word shit. Like, that is a that is a narrative. Yeah. Right?

Christian:

That, honestly, like, our our faith practice is fed to us. Mhmm. If this, then this. Full stop. All the time, every time, no context required.

Christian:

Right? I didn't say it was right. There's a reason I used the voice I did. But, like, that's sometimes

Whitney:

to my face, y'all. I'm sorry. What? My husband, she's responding to my face. I'm sorry.

Christian:

Oh, I thought you made a sound. The face made a sound to me.

Whitney:

It was a silence. It was

Christian:

a silent face. I didn't make any sound.

Christopher:

What's the synesthesia is this?

Christopher:

Okay.

Christian:

Oh, yeah. Well, there we go. Spice.

Christopher:

They're doing some sprinkle emojis. Yeah.

Christian:

We're doing a little salt bae. But yeah. Like, you know, I've I've noticed that about both of us in different respects. When something that you have planned out isn't working, it can be very difficult to, like, shift gears. Yeah.

Christian:

Like, you either are like, never mind. Won't do it at all. Or no. It has to be this way. And you keep banging your head against the wall or the toilet or the toilet.

Christian:

Ew. Ew, Jim Carrey.

Christopher:

I had to pee. What happened?

Christian:

Jim Carrey. Liar Liar. He

Whitney:

smashed his face with that earlier. It was a callback.

Christian:

It was I don't think he ever seen Liar Liar?

Whitney:

Bad when you have to explain.

Christian:

Have you seen Liar Liar?

Christopher:

I mean, yeah. I don't remember.

Christian:

Oh, I watched it Yeah. So much. You're

Christopher:

obsessed. I watched it. No. No. Yeah.

Whitney:

Have you ever studied your Hello. As a viewer?

Christopher:

Yeah. I hyperfixates on top.

Christian:

Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Bebe careful.

Christian:

I was one of them.

Christopher:

Me too. I it's just one of them. I can tell you Forrest Gump. I can tell you, Forrest Gump.

Christian:

Love Forrest Gump. Forrest Gump. You could tell me more of Forrest Gump before I'm on the Forrest Gump too. That's that's gonna be so fucking long, but it's so good.

Christopher:

Yes. It's one of those

Whitney:

that on DVD.

Christopher:

It's one of those I ain't got shit to do. I just wanna lay on the couch kinda movie.

Christian:

My mom has it on the I Liar Liar is at my mom's house on DVD.

Christopher:

I might just do that shit today. Yeah. I need my

Christian:

My mom has a DVD player. DVD player. So as we wrap up this episode, regardless of who you need to have a hard conversation with, whether it's yourself, Heard, whether it's somebody that you really care about, like a spouse or a partner, whether it is a child, a grown child, a friend, a a coworker, a parent. Whoever it is, remember to take accountability first. Acknowledge what it is that you actually need.

Christian:

Get down to that bottom why and then take the information and do do what you need to do with it. Right? And at the end, use your I statements. Use your I statements. And at the end of the day, you'll be the better for it because you will have made been able to make a an informed decision on how to move forward instead of just sitting there doing it whatever it is that you needed to talk about.

Christian:

Because at the end, for real, for real, the longer you hold on to that shit, the more damaging it is to you and everybody around you. Irmins, but not in a healthy way.

Whitney:

Mhmm. It festers. It does fester.

Christopher:

That's the

Christian:

word you want. Yeah. It was. Permitation is delicious, but festering, that's gross.

Whitney:

That's true. Unless it's fruit,

Christian:

you have to do a process. But I I mean, but it still be tasting good. Once you do the process, yes. You got to do the it's a it's a specific process. Yeah.

Christopher:

It's terrible if you let it hang in there.

Christian:

Because that's festering. Yes.

Christopher:

Yeah. Yeah. But the point is I

Whitney:

would also encourage you all to stay present while you're having your conversation.

Christopher:

Mhmm.

Whitney:

Try not to make assumptions within that. Stay with the person. Yeah. Hear what's being said.

Christian:

And if you can't

Christopher:

That's him.

Christian:

You can always put a pen in it. So?

Whitney:

Say so and put a pen in it.

Christian:

Requests to table. I have done this with Chris.

Christopher:

Yeah. She has done this.

Christian:

He didn't love it, but it was better than me No. Than the conversation we would have had because I

Christopher:

didn't get it. And I I was satisfied in the fact that she acknowledged that there was something off. Yeah. And she and I was, okay. Great.

Christian:

Yeah. Long

Christopher:

as we know, but don't don't leave it in the dark.

Whitney:

But also try to put a timetable on that. Put a time to circle back on that so it's not something that now is just hanging more towards the two of you. Yeah. Right. So yeah.

Whitney:

But stay present with the conversation. Stay present with your needs during the conversation so that you know if you need to take a step back. Yeah. Also, respect other people's humanity. And if they need to take a step back, allow them to do so.

Whitney:

Also, everybody don't got the capacity you have. So know that as well going in. Be be responsible for you. That is the only person

Christopher:

I'm heck it matters. Yeah. And I know what they told you, the Bible says, but you really do have to trust yourself. Yeah. Mhmm.

Christopher:

You really have to learn how to trust your heart. I mean, God gave it to you.

Christian:

Yep. Yeah. At some point.

Christopher:

You you're the only one you all you got at the end of the day. That's right. So

Christian:

So if you are preparing for a hard conversation and you want to crowdsource some information or you are you need a little pep talk or something like that. Got you. We got you. And as mentioned earlier, if it didn't get cut out, we are considering starting a little discord

Whitney:

for the whole thing. That was that was I don't remember

Christian:

which part it was. No. No.

Whitney:

No. It was it was a good inflow.

Christian:

It'll say Okay. Good. Yeah. Yeah. So we're considering start a little discourse so that the people who listen to the podcast can discuss and ruminate on all of the things.

Whitney:

Ruminate is a terrible

Christian:

choice of words. Oh, is it reflect? Reflect. Yeah. Ruminate has a different connotation.

Christian:

Okay. Reflect on all of the things that we've been discussing, and we will see you soon

Whitney:

with our hearts and our third eye.

Christian:

Thank you so much for joining us, and be easy. Bye. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Uproot Project podcast. We hope you found fresh perspective and continue to make space for real growth. If you enjoy today's conversation, be sure

Whitney:

to subscribe, share, and leave

Christian:

a review wherever you listen to your podcast. You can follow us on social media at the Uproot Project Podcast on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, or visit us at wwwtheuprootpodcast.com for more content. To contact us, feel free to drop us a line at hello@theuprootpodcast.com. Until next time,

Whitney:

keep living fully, learning openly, and loving deeply. We'll see you soon.

Episode Video

Creators and Guests

Christian Barnes
Host
Christian Barnes
Christian Barnes is an avid reader and spiritual seeker on a journey of excavating and rebuilding the tenets of her faith one belief at a time. She is a proud mom and wife who believes in the power of connection and creativity. She cherishes the moments spent with friends and family, sharing food, laughter, and love. When she doesn’t have her nose in a book, you can find her painting her nails or watching football.
Website Link
Christopher Barnes
Host
Christopher Barnes
Chris Barnes is a pastor, theologian, and mystic leading The Tree Community, a progressive Christian space in Houston, TX. He is dedicated to creating inclusive environments that encourage people to live fully, learn openly, and love deeply. With over two decades of ministry and church experience, Chris helps individuals deconstruct toxic beliefs, relearn truths about God, and grow into their full potential. Through The UProot Project Podcast, he explores faith, mental health, and spirituality in a pluralistic world. His approach emphasizes grace, presence, and intentionality, guiding others toward authentic transformation and a deeper connection with the divine.
Website Link
Whitney Weathersby
Host
Whitney Weathersby
Whitney is a very Black, queer, neurodivergent, recovering church kid and intuitive therapist who is all about deep conversations and disruptive cackles. She is the friend who will pull your card while making you laugh because while healing is hard work, it never gave stuffy. Known for what her friends have dubbed 'Whitney-isms,' you can count on her to unwittingly drop a gem that will shake things up – and to immediately forget what she said. A student of Black feminism, womanism, and decolonial thought, her perspectives are grounded in the liberation of all people—collectively and individually. Whitney’s work centers the experiences of marginalized folks, amplifying often silenced voices, and holding space for the messy, nonlinear path to self-actualization. Whether in therapy sessions, on the podcast, or in everyday conversations, she brings a mix of radical honesty, irreverent humor, and a deep sense of care, leaving people feeling both seen and challenged to grow.