Christian: 00:12

Welcome to the Uproot Project podcast, where we dig deep to uncover and dismantle toxic beliefs about God, ourselves, and each other. Our goal is to replant new insights in the fertile soil of wisdom and love, fostering personal growth and transformation. Join us as we explore new ways of thinking and living in a world of complexity and diversity.

Whitney: 00:42

Hello, and welcome to season two, episode one of the Uproot Project podcast. Woo hoo. It's a

Christopher: 00:51

new season.

Whitney: 00:53

You better come on. Alright. Oh, you okay. So It's

Christopher: 00:56

a new day.

Christian: 00:58

Alright. That's good.

Christopher: 00:58

Alright. So

Whitney: 00:59

I am Whitney. She, her, bad bitch, and that nigga. Alright.

Christian: 01:04

I am Christian. She, her.

Whitney: 01:06

No bitches or niggas. Bitchless, nigga less.

Christopher: 01:12

But she's married to a nigga named Chris.

Whitney: 01:15

Come on.

Christopher: 01:16

He, him, pronouns. Also, that theological nigga.

Whitney: 01:20

Alright. Still. Period. You still gonna be what is it? T what we say?

Christopher: 01:23

TTN. TTN. Still.

Whitney: 01:25

Is it like the t t l a? The auntie tab was talking about and she hopped

Christian: 01:29

off on I don't know. Oh, lord.

Whitney: 01:30

It's a sandwich from Whole Foods that I can't eat because it's got sweat. But even the time I had it, I was her reaction really sold it for people. I didn't like it that much, but people liked it.

Christopher: 01:38

I ain't never heard of it. Soy sauce.

Christian: 01:40

T t l a. So tofu, tomato No. Lettuce and arugula or something. What is it? Avocado?

Whitney: 01:46

I I think avocado.

Christian: 01:47

I mean,

Whitney: 01:48

it was supposed to be like a a what's it called? A BLT?

Christian: 01:52

Oh. Okay. Yeah. Oh, is it Satan? Yeah.

Whitney: 01:54

It is. I think so.

Christopher: 01:55

It's a t t y l.

Whitney: 01:56

Satan. Uh-huh. T t y l. No. But off task.

Whitney: 02:01

Anyway, y'all, thank you for joining us for season two. We're so happy to be back

Christian: 02:07

Yeah, boy.

Whitney: 02:07

In this new year. Happy new year to you. Hope you all had wonderful holiday season. Mhmm. And I don't actually know which week this is coming out.

Whitney: 02:14

So this could be at a, like, oh, we're coming off a higher. Oh, shit. Yeah. Five of years ago.

Christian: 02:19

Gonna be close to, shittish, but we don't we gonna we gonna be alright. Period.

Christopher: 02:25

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian: 02:28

Let's let's keep the energy for later.

Whitney: 02:31

You know what? Let's set the energy. How about that? Let's go ahead and set the tone and set the energy.

Christian: 02:35

So Yep.

Whitney: 02:37

One thing we you bet for a blessing. For a mighty move.

Christian: 02:40

For a mighty move, oh god.

Whitney: 02:42

Who is that?

Christopher: 02:43

In you

Whitney: 02:44

who's gonna get it? Kurt Carr. Car. That's it. Is it you?

Christian: 02:48

A new nation.

Christopher: 02:49

Is it you?

Christian: 02:50

A new nation. That ain't right.

Whitney: 02:51

Y'all have to know. We spent I don't know how long jamming before

Christian: 02:54

A good eight to ten minutes.

Whitney: 02:55

Started recording. So, like, we are way up right now.

Christopher: 02:57

Own little green room section.

Whitney: 02:58

We did. We are way up right now. So we're gonna just take it down a little bit so we can ground ourselves, and we invite you into this mindful numb mindfulness moment with us. If you are driving, please keep your eyes open and stay alert on the road, but take a few breaths with us. If you are not, I'm gonna invite you to close your eyes, and we're gonna take a few breaths, and we are gonna set intention.

Whitney: 03:21

So go ahead, do a deep inhale,

Christopher: 03:27

hold

Whitney: 03:27

it, and then let it out slowly. Do that again. Deep inhale, hold it, let it out slowly. Take a second, feel where you are in your body. If you're holding anywhere in your body, check your eyebrows, your forehead, check your jaw, drop your shoulders, feel the weight of your body in your seat, wherever you're seated.

Whitney: 04:04

Just feel your body. Let it go. Relax. Whatever was on you before you started listening, just let it go. And I want you all to find an intention for this moment.

Whitney: 04:16

So set an intention. My intention, I will share, is presence. I would like to be fully present in this moment. So on our next inhale, I'm going to inhale presence and I'm going to hold, and then I'm going to release anything that is not aligned with that. And I invite you to do the same thing with your intention.

Whitney: 04:36

Okay? Everyone ready? Deep breath in, Hold. Let it out slow and release anything that's not in alignment. We'll do that one more time.

Whitney: 04:54

Deep breath in, lock in that intention. Hold it and release nice and slow. How y'all feeling? All right.

Christopher: 05:12

You're so good.

Whitney: 05:13

Let's get going.

Christian: 05:15

Nice. So this season, we are going to be talking about vulnerability and Mhmm. How being vulnerable gives us an opportunity to grow and to deepen our relationships both with each other and with God and, honestly, with ourselves. So we're going to talk a little bit now about what makes it hard for us to be vulnerable. What makes it hard to be vulnerable in general?

Christian: 05:46

Mhmm. But more, like, specifically, like, with ourselves. What what makes it hard to be honest and vulnerable with you?

Whitney: 05:56

Oh, that's good.

Christopher: 05:57

Yeah.

Whitney: 05:58

I I the first word that actually comes to mind for me is, like, shame. Right?

Christopher: 06:04

It's

Whitney: 06:05

shame. And so because if there's something in me that I can't be honest with myself about, like, what's the block there?

Christian: 06:13

Mhmm.

Whitney: 06:14

Right? And it feels like I've I've made some, like, judgment about a part of me.

Christian: 06:18

Mhmm. Moralized it.

Whitney: 06:19

Yeah. Exactly. I've moralized this part of me. Yeah. And so that's it's if I am if I am judging myself based on whatever standards have been imparted in me, and I think that's also important.

Whitney: 06:30

Right? Like, that that the judgment of ourselves is not, like, inherent to ourselves. It comes it's a learned behavior.

Christian: 06:36

Yeah. Socialized.

Whitney: 06:36

Right? It's a learned narrative. And so, yeah, if you if you hide and you from mute, which is crazy, like, I hear it. You know? Like Done it?

Whitney: 06:43

Done it.

Christian: 06:44

You know what I'm saying?

Whitney: 06:44

Like, I'm hearing it when I'm saying it, and I'm like, this is some crazy shit.

Christian: 06:48

But we do. Mhmm.

Whitney: 06:49

Yeah. You know? But it's like, this is the part I don't like. This is the ugly part. This is the part that, like, I don't even wanna see, let alone let anyone else see.

Whitney: 07:02

Yeah. You know?

Christian: 07:03

Absolutely. So shame for me, like, the first thing that came to mind was fear. Yeah. Right? And so that can have some overlap with shame, obviously, but there is a a fear of rejection, a fear of, you know, if we if we go religious with it, a fear of hell and the brimstone and all that.

Christian: 07:22

But those are the things that kind of come to mind, a fear of being ostracized or left out or just not being enough, like, all of those fears that crop up about your worth and your abilities and things like that makes it difficult to be honest with yourself. Makes it difficult for me to be honest with myself. Yeah. Absolutely.

Christopher: 07:43

Right. And I think even for me, what comes up is distrust. Mhmm. I don't

Christian: 07:52

Yeah. I I

Christopher: 07:52

have problems. One of the reasons why I don't develop a lot of relationships with people deeply is because I do struggle with trusting people with me. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, learning to lean or learning to be open.

Christopher: 08:09

And and I find myself, especially when it comes to trying to build friendships with other men, I find myself trying to find what are what are acceptable ways of communicating myself Yeah. To men or other men that would still have them view me as a part of their interview Yeah. Their group in a way. Yeah. It's like I I still wanna express my feelings or express how I feel about the situation, but I still I have to pack it to a certain way so that is appropriate for

Christian: 08:43

Palatable to them.

Christopher: 08:44

Palatable for them. Yeah. Because, like, I'm a be me. Yeah. But I also don't want them to think I'm weird.

Whitney: 08:50

Well and that's what I was about to ask. So trust is a funny thing.

Christopher: 08:53

Mhmm.

Whitney: 08:53

And I'm I might be I'm going slightly off script. But Mhmm. Trust is a funny thing, especially when we say we are not trusting other people. Mhmm. Because are we actually not trusting other people, or are we not trusting ourselves to recover from the, like, backlash from the other person's reaction?

Christopher: 09:09

Mhmm.

Whitney: 09:09

Right? Because, like, if if I actually am solid in myself and I don't care, right, which is that's I mean, that's hard. We it's hard to really not give a fuck about anything. It's hard.

Christian: 09:19

Buddy.

Whitney: 09:19

Yeah. Right. But, like, you know, people are just like, oh, I don't trust people. Is it that you don't trust people or is it that you don't trust your response to their rejection?

Christopher: 09:29

Yeah. You

Whitney: 09:30

know? You're ready to rebound or whatever.

Christopher: 09:32

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't have anything. It's like, this is me, you know.

Christopher: 09:35

Yeah. And I've gotten to a certain point in in some regards that I just be like, well, fuck you. I don't know what I mean. No.

Whitney: 09:40

That's Yeah. That's good ass. I was like, I've seen you have your very fucking moments. Yeah.

Christopher: 09:43

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm 37. Like, I don't have time to if you if this if this is what causes you to, you know, not be friends with me. Okay.

Christopher: 09:51

Well Right.

Christian: 09:52

Is what it is.

Christopher: 09:52

Then we're

Whitney: 09:52

not supposed to be friends.

Christopher: 09:53

It is what it is.

Christian: 09:54

We're not aligned.

Christopher: 09:54

We're not aligned.

Whitney: 09:55

The end.

Christopher: 09:56

Right. You know? But but I did find in moments where I was real or vulnerable and shared my story that I allowed other men to also be in that space

Christian: 10:07

Yeah.

Christopher: 10:08

And be authentic with themselves and and share how they feel even angry, even if it was jumbled up, even if it was misguided in there to state, they felt free to share them with me. Yeah. And I can be vulnerable and share them with hate is why I am too.

Whitney: 10:21

Yeah. I think that's the the beauty of vulnerability. And I know, Christian, we started this talking about, like, being vulnerable with ourselves, which I there's a you have that's step one. Right? Like, to then be vulnerable with others.

Whitney: 10:33

But the beauty of vulnerability is that, like, it's a connector. Yeah. You know? And so, like, if I can be vulnerable with myself and then show up and take the risks to show up authentically Mhmm. In my mess.

Whitney: 10:47

Right? Yeah. And not necessarily when I say show up in my mess, I don't mean in a way that is, like, you know, that completely disregards other people's boundaries or not. You don't you don't get to do that. But just showing up as me and just being like, hey.

Christian: 10:58

Yourself. Yeah.

Whitney: 10:59

This is where I struggle. Or, like, this is just me. Right? And allowing somebody else to be like, hey. Like, one of my good friends does this to me all the time.

Whitney: 11:07

I have so I have therapist friends who, oddly enough, we didn't know we were therapists when we met. We just met in in line at a concert. I said something funny, and then it was in a conversation. Love that. But she always she'll be like, friend, insert poignant question that is a read.

Whitney: 11:23

And I'll be like, mother fucker. Like, I didn't come here for the girl. We going hiking. What? You know what?

Whitney: 11:29

Let me reflect. You know? And it's it's it's one of those. Right? Like, even if it's something that maybe has escaped my awareness or I haven't put the pieces together, allowing being vulnerable enough to, like, allow someone to reflect you back to you.

Whitney: 11:42

Like and it's the more that we do that, like, the the deeper our friendship goes. Right? Because we are able to do that to each other

Christopher: 11:49

Right.

Whitney: 11:49

And show up honestly. And so when I think about the times that we're in, like and there's a lot of talk around community building. And as a person who has done community building for Mhmm. Really long time, like, you are like, in order to be in community, you have to do a lot of inner work first.

Christopher: 12:09

You do.

Whitney: 12:09

And vulnerability is one of the top ones.

Christian: 12:12

It's a huge component of that.

Whitney: 12:13

It's a huge component. Like, you have to be able to see yourself. You have to be able to be seen. And I think for me as the I'm I would say I'm the resident, like, vulnerable like, vulnerability has been a lesson for me for 2024, lifelong. But 2024 has been very loud and in my face.

Whitney: 12:28

And I know we all hear struck we actually all struggle with vulnerability. None don't give me the shifty eyes, Christian. I know. I I know. Mightily.

Whitney: 12:38

Yeah. And so, like, I Mightily. It's it's been such a a thing for me. Right? And I think that's that's been the the catalyzing piece.

Whitney: 12:48

It's like, no. I want to show up fully so I can, like, truly be present. Create, like you were saying, Chris, those moments where we can connect Right. Via our humanity.

Christopher: 13:01

Right. Yeah. Exactly.

Whitney: 13:02

I mean, and

Christian: 13:03

I think that's the whole point. Right? A vulnerability is to is to to grant you the ability to connect. Mhmm. Right?

Christian: 13:10

It's very difficult to connect with someone who is constantly guarded and unwilling to share well, I was reading a book, and they were talking about the difference between someone, like, sharing information Versus their feeling about it. Yeah. The way that they feel about the things that have happened. Yep. So, you know, somebody could be like, oh, I tell you about my day, and it's like, no.

Christian: 13:34

But you need to tell me how you feel about what happened during your day. And, like, that's the difference between just sharing information and actually being

Whitney: 13:41

Transparency versus vulnerability. Variability. Yeah. Right.

Christian: 13:44

That's the that's the that's the exact thing. Right? And so when we when we're talking about, like, when we're talking about vulnerability this season, it's not just a it's like, oh, you need to cry on somebody's shoulder, and you need to do this because catharsis and I mean, yes, catharsis is great. Yeah. But or getting the emotions out, letting them flow.

Christian: 14:02

Right? But at the same time, that is how we build community. Like, the shared experience, you gotta share the experience part. Right? Exactly.

Christian: 14:13

Not just the facts and the numbers. You actually have to share, this is what I'm going through. This is how it's making me feel Yeah. Which, you know, that that is gonna be a theme It is.

Christopher: 14:25

In a

Christian: 14:25

lot of our lives. But as as a like, as a large, I'll say, American community. Right?

Whitney: 14:33

I think it's global too.

Christian: 14:34

Global, but also, like, individual. Like, we're talking about not, you know, just trying to make friends with a stranger so that y'all can do a service project, but, like, getting in deeper with the people that you care about so that when something really bad goes down, you have somebody to call. Like, we talked

Christopher: 14:49

about this

Christian: 14:49

loneliness epidemic that's been going on since the pandemic, and it wasn't just about, like, a lack of proximity. Right?

Christopher: 14:56

Mhmm.

Christian: 14:56

Like, we for me and Whitney, specifically, we were able to stay connected throughout the pandemic even though we didn't see each other for the better part of, like, a year and a half. Yeah. And that only changed because I had a baby, and so she came around. But I hadn't seen her for the better part of a year and a half in person, you know? And so, like but we were able to keep that connection because Mhmm.

Christian: 15:17

There was still an exchange going on in spite of the lack of proximity. So when you're talking about the loneliness epidemic, it's not just about not being in groups of people. It is very possible to be incredibly lonely and surrounded by people Absolutely. Because you don't have any real connection.

Whitney: 15:31

Well, yeah.

Christopher: 15:32

Go ahead. And something you said wouldn't brought to mind Katt Williams at

Christian: 15:37

the February 2024.

Christopher: 15:40

Isn't that

Christian: 15:40

long, Jesus?

Whitney: 15:41

Yeah. Yeah. He called this shit at the beginning of the year.

Christopher: 15:43

The beginning

Whitney: 15:44

of last year.

Christopher: 15:45

Right. All lives will be exposed in 2024. And when he said that, I was like, yeah. He was probably he's probably more prophetic than he would would That

Whitney: 15:54

was the energy again. Moment.

Christopher: 15:55

That was the energy. Yeah. All last week. And then you saw all 2024. You saw a lot of shit get taken off.

Christopher: 16:01

And especially in especially in what comes under my purview when I'm looking into the church context, there's a lot of Yeah. Ripping off and uncovering of different pastors and just different things, church culture that put on this great display and scrutiny in more ways than I think in previous years. Yeah. And I think a lot of it does speaks to how religious structures don't always equip us to learn how to deal with the vulnerability or our humanity Yeah. In ways that allow us to get the help that we need to actually heal.

Christopher: 16:40

Yeah. Because we have this sin consciousness, we either have to act like it doesn't exist or we have to deny something about us that is really just human. But we have to but, you know but because we're in a religious structure, we're not able to get the help we need to be human or the freedom to use human. Mhmm. When you think about even like, for example, a certain pastor.

Christopher: 17:04

I'm not gonna name names because because I don't People

Christian: 17:06

figure it out. Keep going.

Christopher: 17:07

People figure it out. You know, certain pastors that are involved in, same sex scandals, you know, when they're married to wives. But I was like, you know, what if he was just allowed to be him? Mhmm. What was he what what if he was allowed to be honest with his sexuality in a way that would inform, you know, his human that would affirm his humanness and also to give him the help he needs so that way he didn't have to, like, die in the secrecy.

Christopher: 17:36

Yeah. Mhmm. And and and now because he's so gifted, he rose to power. And now that power has corrupted his humanity to the degree that he's weaponizing it to oppress others.

Christian: 17:48

Yeah. Mhmm.

Christopher: 17:49

And so Oui. What could have been checked way back when we could have said, okay. This is an aspect of humanity that we will make room for you to be human. Yeah. And we will hold you accountable when you behave in ways that disregard other people's humanity.

Christian: 18:06

Mhmm.

Christopher: 18:07

Maybe we could maybe we would had a we will still have a gifted person Yeah. But would also have a whole person.

Christian: 18:14

Instead of one who's had to segment themselves. Yeah.

Whitney: 18:16

And I think, like, that's what's interesting is, like, this desire to have people compartmentalize themselves.

Christian: 18:24

Oh, Jesus.

Whitney: 18:25

Yeah. Like and and Just

Christopher: 18:27

put in the because we have to we because we are taught that part of your calling is to commit to the facade.

Whitney: 18:32

Right. But that invalidates who you are. But, like, you have this calling in your totality of being. Right. Right?

Whitney: 18:39

And so, like

Christian: 18:41

Not just on the things that they've decided are appropriate. Exactly. Mhmm. And so

Whitney: 18:44

and it's really interesting to me because then it's like, what are we saying about, like, God? Right? Like, what are we saying about how God creates?

Christopher: 18:53

Right.

Christian: 18:53

If

Whitney: 18:53

we're saying, oh, all of you is acceptable except these parts. No. No. No. God made you, but, like, not these parts.

Whitney: 19:00

Right? That's usually

Christian: 19:01

the bad part.

Whitney: 19:01

That's very odd behavior. Like, that's This

Christopher: 19:04

is very odd behavior.

Whitney: 19:05

Yeah. But then you want people to bring it all to the altar.

Christian: 19:08

But that's not safe.

Whitney: 19:10

And that's what I think Mhmm.

Christopher: 19:11

Like, my brain At least they don't have a safe response to it.

Whitney: 19:14

No. Well, which makes it not safe. And to be honest, if the response is not only not safe, it can often be violent in one way or another. Yeah. Like, you know, and for men, it can be physically for trans women, it can be physically violent.

Whitney: 19:26

Right? Like

Christopher: 19:27

Yeah.

Whitney: 19:27

But even if it's not physically, verbally violent, emotionally like, it can it's a violent response.

Christian: 19:33

Like, yanking away your ability to make money Exactly.

Whitney: 19:35

If you don't

Christian: 19:36

put a specific, you know, narrative around.

Whitney: 19:37

Exactly. And so, like, I think and so even as we talk about vulnerability, I think we should add the framing that, like, everybody doesn't deserve your vulnerability. Right? The idea all access mask. Yeah.

Whitney: 19:49

The idea is that you, like, you get to use your discernment Mhmm. Over, like, who you actually would like to connect with because everybody ain't your people.

Christopher: 19:57

Like Right.

Whitney: 19:58

At the end of the day, everybody is not your people. And what listen. Y'all I watched the Megan Thee Stallion documentary. Did y'all watch that?

Christian: 20:03

I have watched it.

Whitney: 20:04

It's on Amazon. It's actually good. And I say, actually, I love Meg. I'm a little old for her music sometimes, but sometimes it it really gets you right. But the documentary was yeah.

Whitney: 20:13

The documentary was great. And one of the things she she's talking about her father who passed when she was younger. She says he he used to say everything that Grant ain't your friend.

Christian: 20:20

Mhmm.

Whitney: 20:21

And I I think that applies here. Right? So everything that Grant ain't your friend, like, you know, see what's resonant with the energy and then decide from there. Like, oftentimes, especially as black people in workspaces that are not predominantly black or workspaces that are predominantly black, but whiteness is pervasive. Come on.

Whitney: 20:38

So the supremacy still exists within

Christian: 20:41

It's just being perpetuated by the brown people.

Whitney: 20:43

Exactly. Because internalized but, like, work isn't always your best place to be vulnerable. Unless you feel like it is, and if that's it, go off, sis. Like, we know that you have a supportive environment. But, like, that's not always for you.

Whitney: 20:57

Right? Like, you you have to figure out and and rightly divide who you really wanna connect with, who is worth connecting with

Christian: 21:04

on that trustworthy.

Whitney: 21:05

Who's trustworthy. Right? Like, who who are these people that are also gonna show up vulnerable in community with you? Yeah. Because that I will tell you, that's the thing.

Whitney: 21:13

Like, if I'm showing up because I have been on a mission,

Christian: 21:16

you know?

Whitney: 21:16

Absolutely. So if I'm showing up vulnerably

Christian: 21:19

Thank you.

Whitney: 21:19

And it don't inspire vulnerability in you

Christian: 21:22

That's alright.

Whitney: 21:22

And that feels like a disconnect. Right? Like, we have a disconnect. So either we discuss this disconnect because maybe you're just going through your own journey with vulnerability. It's just hard.

Whitney: 21:30

Sure. And you're trustworthy and all those things. And that's okay. But maybe it's also like you not cool with you yet. Right?

Whitney: 21:37

Right. People that's not cool with them, they do weird shit with you. Yeah.

Christian: 21:41

Yeah. You know? They're not independently. Right. Exactly.

Christopher: 21:43

If they're not integrated within themselves, they would definitely break you.

Christian: 21:47

Exactly. They have they have the They have the

Whitney: 21:48

yeah. They have yes. They will take action in that direction. Right? Whether it actually impacts you in that way is a different

Christopher: 21:55

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. They can.

Whitney: 21:57

Yeah. And so it's like you have to use your judgment Absolutely. To determine who is actually worth. And I think that's that's also true for being in community. So, like, for context, I co run an organization.

Whitney: 22:09

And I'm not gonna say too much about it because we're restructuring, and I don't wanna be wrong by the time January rolls around. But I have run it for a few years, but we do a lot of work in communities. Right? And and even before this, like, a lot of my professional experience outside of mental health is in, like, working with building communities around particular topics or whatever. And in order to show up in these communities, like, it's gotta be two way.

Whitney: 22:33

Right?

Christopher: 22:34

Yeah.

Whitney: 22:34

It's gotta be two way. Right? Like, I can't I can't come in as a, like, I got it all together. Right?

Christopher: 22:40

Mhmm.

Whitney: 22:40

And there are some people that, like, on paper fit in your community, but they're not willing or ready to do the actual work to be a valid community member. So, like, having community compacts and community, like, contracts Mhmm. That is useful because it's like this is these are our standard of operation.

Christian: 22:57

Right.

Whitney: 22:58

Right? This is how we show up and show up in love and in care and in all these things

Christopher: 23:02

Right.

Whitney: 23:02

For one another. And if you cannot abide Yeah. Then you don't get to participate in this community. Now granted, there's there's steps between, you know, start and finish. Yeah.

Whitney: 23:11

Yeah. No. You don't listen. I'm hard I'm a hardballer. Like, if we we have steps steps for, like, reconciliation and, like, how do we repair?

Whitney: 23:20

Oh, sure. If you're not willing to do those things Yeah. Yeah. You will not be in this community because that is how we are all showing up. You are now a risk.

Whitney: 23:27

You are the danger. Yeah.

Christian: 23:29

Wow. No. That's Yeah. In in the wake of of the election, that was something that kept getting said. I'm I'm a I'm on bookstagram.

Christian: 23:37

So which is Instagram, but bookish. And one

Whitney: 23:41

of the things it's just the algorithm. Right? It's not a is it its own? No.

Christian: 23:45

No. No. It's it's it's on Instagram. Twitter. Oh, yeah.

Christian: 23:48

Well, it's Instagram. No. No. But black okay.

Whitney: 23:50

Yes. Like, black Twitter.

Christian: 23:51

Got you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that was getting said a lot oh, I wish all the people who, you know, are on bookstagram would stop talking about politics and people like reading is political.

Christian: 24:01

But Mhmm. Yes. In addition, one

Christopher: 24:04

Policies are in words.

Whitney: 24:05

Welcome. The personal is political. Everything. So whether you like politics or not, politics impacts you. It impacts every every part

Christian: 24:12

of your life that you'd like to think about clearly.

Whitney: 24:14

Oh,

Christian: 24:15

okay. But but one of the things that another thing that came up was the idea that there were a lot of specifically q plus creators that were

Whitney: 24:25

Q plus being queer plus.

Christian: 24:26

Yes. Okay. That were making it clear that their their their page, their comments, their corner of the Internet was a safe space

Whitney: 24:38

Mhmm.

Christian: 24:39

But not for people who were unsafe. That's right. And that that clarity That's community. That clarity of

Christopher: 24:45

Yeah.

Christian: 24:46

I cannot allow people who are unsafe to come in and make my safe space no longer safe. That defeats the purpose. I came here to create a safe space for a group of people. And in the name of temperance and, you know, tolerance

Whitney: 25:03

Tolerance. Yep.

Christian: 25:04

I can't let you just come in here and run rough shot over this community. This community has a basis. And if you are not willing to commit to the the the tenants Yeah. Of how we have chosen to deal with each other and interact with each other, then you must go.

Whitney: 25:20

You have to go. Right. You are not in compliance. Right. You're not in compliance.

Christopher: 25:24

Oh, the tolerance paradox.

Christian: 25:26

Oh, yes. I've seen this one.

Christopher: 25:27

Like, you know, if you

Christian: 25:28

in the last few days.

Christopher: 25:29

You know, we must be we can be tolerant, but we're not going to be tolerant of those who are intolerant.

Whitney: 25:35

Correct.

Christopher: 25:36

Yeah. Because in order to be in practice tolerance, we have to have some level of boundaries and guard and That's

Christian: 25:43

the word.

Christopher: 25:44

And gatekeeping around

Christian: 25:46

You have to be confident.

Whitney: 25:46

What is acceptable.

Christopher: 25:47

Yeah. And so even with I I said it even with with the with the tree community early on, I told him, I was like, hey. We are Mhmm. But we are not in we're we're inclusive in terms of things you cannot control.

Whitney: 26:03

Mhmm.

Christopher: 26:04

You know, age, sex, and all that stuff, gender and sexuality. We're we're inclusive of all those things that you that you can't control. We are exclusive to people who are intolerant of those views and are not safe. And so not every opinion just to be shared here. Yeah.

Christopher: 26:20

You know, they are valid, but they do not necessarily have a voice.

Whitney: 26:24

Not here. That's it.

Christopher: 26:25

Not here.

Whitney: 26:26

And I think the important

Christopher: 26:27

show not a vote.

Whitney: 26:28

Okay. And when I think that's it. Right? So, like, even in thinking about that so I'm in I'm in several, like, random social groups for a variety of reasons. Right?

Whitney: 26:37

And so I was talking to a friend who is also in one of the social groups, and she was, like, telling me how like, why she left. And there was a situation where it like, if it had been anybody else, everybody in the group would have been like, what? That's egregious. That's wrong. Why?

Whitney: 26:56

We can't right? But, like, there was a situation with a particular person who, I guess, has some weight in the group. Mhmm. And so it wasn't handled. And so she was like, I don't feel safe here.

Whitney: 27:06

And I'm like, no. Your agreements have to apply to everybody. Like, nobody can be exempt. I don't care how long you've been there.

Christian: 27:12

Of the law.

Whitney: 27:13

Exactly. I don't care how long I don't care that you started it. I don't like, that's not how it works. You you cannot be above correction. And I think that's where vulnerability comes in.

Whitney: 27:20

Right? Because you have to be able to be seen being wrong. Yep.

Christopher: 27:23

Yeah.

Whitney: 27:24

Right? And then be able to accept that and make the corrections that you need. Like, that's how we grow. Like, that's the whole point of us being mirrors for one another. Right.

Whitney: 27:31

Right? Like, you're we all have blind spots within ourselves about ourselves. Mhmm. And people are gonna reflect that back to

Christian: 27:37

you. Absolutely. Right? And the and, like, the idea of having a community where there is one person who the rules don't apply to, like, the community is now imbalanced. Right?

Christian: 27:47

It it it's giving cult. Yeah. It's an imbalanced community because the idea of community is, like, commune togetherness. It is it is a shared Unity.

Whitney: 27:55

We are coming together for unity.

Christopher: 27:58

Common union.

Christian: 27:58

It's a shared burden. Right? And if you, as leader or

Whitney: 28:03

Which is also Whatever. To unpack. But yeah.

Christian: 28:05

Yeah. But if you, as the leader or whatever group of people happens to be the leaders, right, are no longer subject to the contract, to the social contract we signed to make this community. Mhmm. This is this is now a cult. There is now a power imbalance Yes.

Christian: 28:20

Which shifts everything else that's gonna go on within the community.

Christopher: 28:23

Right. It's it's yeah. It's very much a culture personality.

Christian: 28:25

Yep. Mhmm. Absolutely.

Christopher: 28:27

You know, we regulate ourselves, but the leader over there is is to his own or to their own self.

Whitney: 28:33

Or or we get to build the rules for we get to bend the rules.

Christian: 28:37

The rules change.

Whitney: 28:38

Or they change for a leader.

Christian: 28:41

Right. It's amazing.

Whitney: 28:43

Yeah. That's crazy how that works. That usually happens when it's a white man.

Christian: 28:46

You you at the very least, you gotta have a dick. Yep.

Whitney: 28:49

Yeah. No. I was I was baseline that I made. Very pointed.

Christian: 28:51

I'm aware of what you would

Whitney: 28:52

guess when it happened, it can happen for a lot. But, yes, penises really

Christian: 28:56

Penises really you know, they they lead the way in, disproportionate dynamics.

Christopher: 29:02

It is a patriarchal society. It is

Whitney: 29:04

Particularly disproportionate dynamics.

Christopher: 29:07

Right. It is resident in anybody, but

Whitney: 29:10

No. It is right.

Christopher: 29:11

Patriarchal societies men we men get the pass to be

Whitney: 29:18

A power pass.

Christopher: 29:19

A power pass. Okay. Power pass. Because we're you know, we we swing the whatever size stick you have. Oh.

Whitney: 29:27

Well well well.

Christopher: 29:28

And

Christian: 29:28

I'm not gonna comment.

Christopher: 29:29

I mean, just saying.

Whitney: 29:30

That was my comment.

Christopher: 29:31

But, but but, you know, you have it. And so because of that, you know, to be just wowed and It does. And and, you know, have that. That's one thing men will have. Us we, me in particular as well, will have is the audacity.

Christian: 29:47

Any of it? Mitigate it all.

Christopher: 29:49

We can Okay. Mitigate it. Yeah. Now we could channel it in in all sorts of ways.

Whitney: 29:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher: 29:55

But, yeah, like, a lot of us are have given was we've been given carte blanche to channel it in very, deleterious

Christian: 30:05

Nefarious. Ways.

Whitney: 30:07

I love nefarious.

Christopher: 30:08

Ad. Makes me

Whitney: 30:09

think of uncle Scar.

Christian: 30:10

Deleterious. Deleterious and nefarious. Yeah.

Christopher: 30:13

But yeah. So it's yeah. It's it's so it's something that we like, I think, Torsha, what you were saying, Whitney, I think maybe either either off the record or last season that you said, you know, men have to if you see a man Oh, yeah. That is good, it's because he chooses to be

Whitney: 30:33

Absolutely. He put it to work. Yeah. Yeah. Men don't necessarily get rewarded for like, they don't have to be good.

Christopher: 30:39

No. They don't.

Whitney: 30:39

They can even appear to be good and not be good and still get rewarded. Right. Right? You they could also appear to be shit and be Be rewarded. Not shit and be rewarded.

Christopher: 30:50

It could.

Whitney: 30:51

Yeah. Like, men are not incentivized for actually being whole people.

Christian: 30:54

Well, they have they for the for a long time, they haven't been by anybody. Right? And it is interesting, and we'll get into the relationship bit of this later. There is now a larger contingent of women who are interested in men and are like, I'm not I refuse to fuck with this. Right.

Christian: 31:11

You are you are not a whole person, and and I will not be subjected to it. Mhmm. And men are like, feminism, And it's like, I have self respect. I don't

Christopher: 31:20

I don't I no longer

Whitney: 31:21

I'm also requiring more of you. I'm requiring you to be a whole adult. Yeah. Emotionally aware.

Christopher: 31:27

And and I will

Christian: 31:28

say vulnerable. Right.

Christopher: 31:30

I will say this as a shameless plug. We will have a new podcast out that is more male focused and men empowering called This is Manhood.

Christian: 31:38

This Is Manhood.

Christopher: 31:39

Coming out. We're not

Whitney: 31:40

gonna be on it because we ain't got no manhoods.

Christian: 31:42

We ain't got no manhoods.

Christopher: 31:43

No. Do we no.

Whitney: 31:44

Should we do a This Is Womanhood? No. No. No. I don't want to.

Christopher: 31:47

Part of bullshit. Part of the podcast is that We can

Christian: 31:50

just send around a $6.

Christopher: 31:51

Women. So we will have some women on there.

Whitney: 31:54

Oh, wow. That's crazy. Right. I didn't know if I

Christian: 31:57

I mean She is yes.

Christopher: 31:58

We have any

Whitney: 31:59

I'm bullshitting. I'm like, I already know. My package was delivered.

Christopher: 32:04

Wonderful. But, anyway, just like I said, shameless plug. So be on the lookout for that.

Whitney: 32:08

Yes.

Christopher: 32:08

Yeah. So it'll be

Whitney: 32:09

We're expanding. Oh, my god.

Christian: 32:11

Do we have a network Universe. Universe is expanding. I love it.

Christopher: 32:15

We're working

Whitney: 32:16

in it. First. Yes. I love it. Our omniverse.

Christopher: 32:20

Anyhoo. Listen to me.

Christian: 32:22

We talk

Whitney: 32:23

shit in different ways.

Christian: 32:24

Yep. Yep. Yep. Be true. Oh, yeah.

Christian: 32:28

What?

Whitney: 32:29

There was a thing I was about to say about oh, about being in sorry. Chris and I have the same problem. Because we're similar people. Mhmm. Being in community that is in and just to and maybe we already said it, but, like, anytime you're in any relationship, right, whether it is communal, platonic, romantic, whatever, like rupture will happen.

Christian: 32:58

Mhmm.

Whitney: 32:59

Rupture is going to happen because it's two people. Right? Or two or more Right. People. Right?

Whitney: 33:04

And at some point, somebody gonna hurt somebody on accident. Like, everybody got different narratives, different triggers, different whatevers. Right?

Christopher: 33:09

Mhmm.

Whitney: 33:10

The problem and I think oftentimes, especially in the service of not being vulnerable, we talk about the rupture. Yes. When really the conversation is about the

Christopher: 33:22

repair.

Whitney: 33:22

Right? The rupture will happen. Right.

Christopher: 33:25

Right. Not the rapture.

Whitney: 33:26

Not the rapture.

Christopher: 33:28

The rapture.

Whitney: 33:28

Whole fucking churchy. You Sure. Yeah. Break the damage. The rupture.

Whitney: 33:34

There will be damage.

Christopher: 33:36

Right.

Whitney: 33:36

Right? But vulnerability is saying, even beforehand, like, if we know there's gonna be a rupture at some point, how do we handle this? Right? Like, how can I show up vulnerably? Yeah.

Whitney: 33:48

And acknowledge, a, that there was a if I'm the offendee, like, that there was a rupture. Because some of us

Christopher: 33:54

Mhmm.

Whitney: 33:55

I'm looking at you and me, Christian. We tend we might suck it up in in the name of in in previous forms of us. We're still working on, let's say that.

Christian: 34:05

Process.

Whitney: 34:05

Not sucking it up in order to keep the peace. Yeah. Right? Mhmm. And so but, like, to make a repair, we have to acknowledge a rupture, which can feel vulnerable.

Christian: 34:14

It is. Right? It

Whitney: 34:16

is. Right. And then but also in order to hear that we ruptured something

Christian: 34:21

Yeah.

Whitney: 34:22

We also have to have vulnerability to see ourselves reflected back. Right? Or the impact. Even if it wasn't the intent, the impact of our actions reflected back.

Christopher: 34:30

That's what makes intimacy both beautiful and terrifying. Absolutely.

Whitney: 34:34

The same there. Jesus.

Christian: 34:37

For sure.

Christopher: 34:37

Because you feel sane. Yeah. You feel sane.

Whitney: 34:40

You feel sane. Simple people in your totality. Right? You're so happy.

Christian: 34:44

I see you.

Christopher: 34:45

I see you.

Whitney: 34:46

Yeah. But I mean, I

Christian: 34:46

think, like, when you talk about it, like, the way that for us, it's like, oh, I don't wanna talk about the the damage that's been done because I wanna keep the peace. Yeah. There's also a method of I don't wanna talk about the damage they've been done because I don't want you to know that you have that much power. Right? Yeah.

Christian: 35:01

Oh.

Whitney: 35:03

You know? And I think that's my brand.

Christopher: 35:05

See me cry.

Whitney: 35:06

No. And that's that's absolutely. Absolutely. Or, like, my thing would be like, I used to say I don't say this anymore, so nobody panic. But, like, I used to be like, oh, don't just ignore my tears.

Whitney: 35:16

They don't mean anything. I'm just frustrated. Right? And it's like, no. They mean everything.

Whitney: 35:21

They mean well, no. And, like, for me, I know it's, like, I just I don't wanna share that with

Christian: 35:25

you. Yeah.

Whitney: 35:25

Right? Right. A, because you just ruptured, and I don't trust that, like, we can repair. I mean, you know?

Christian: 35:30

It is a problem.

Whitney: 35:31

Now granted. When that was true, there was a reason.

Christian: 35:34

Right.

Christopher: 35:34

Right.

Christian: 35:35

And so, again, back to the it's not always safe to be vulnerable. Yeah. And so, yes, there are times when vulnerability is not something you owe another person. Yeah. Right.

Christian: 35:44

But they like, to your point, like, you saying in your head, I know that this is a thing, but I don't feel safe sharing it with you. That's one thing.

Whitney: 35:51

Yeah. Mhmm.

Christian: 35:52

Whereas for me, it's like, you shouldn't feel a way about this. Yeah. Why do you feel a way about this? There's something wrong with you if you feel a way about this. No.

Christian: 35:59

That's true. That internal lack of vulnerability even with me

Christopher: 36:03

Mhmm.

Christian: 36:04

Like, if, you know, there there are times where vulnerability is not possible with other people, but if you can't be honest with you, sis.

Whitney: 36:12

Yeah. Right.

Christian: 36:13

If you can't be honest with yourself You don't

Whitney: 36:14

stand a chance.

Christian: 36:15

Struggle. Yeah. Struggle. It's it's gonna struggle with for you, on your lonesome, for you Mhmm. In any kind of relationships you got, and probably for you and community too.

Christian: 36:28

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Christopher: 36:30

Yeah. That's that's very valid. I'm that's one of the things y'all said that brought up to mind, one of my previous dating relationships where I was, you know, dating someone, and this is back when I had an evangelical purity cultural mindset

Christian: 36:44

Mhmm. When we

Christopher: 36:45

were trying to skirt the lines of sexual intimacy. We were trying to, you know

Christian: 36:51

How how far relate

Christopher: 36:52

to one another.

Christian: 36:53

How far is sex?

Christopher: 36:54

Right. How far how how far is sex before it's not

Whitney: 36:57

Right. Before it's not holy?

Christopher: 36:58

Right. Before it's It's like,

Christian: 36:59

what can we what can we do?

Christopher: 37:01

What can we do? So, yeah, we were flirting line for about a year and a half.

Whitney: 37:04

Which is such a crazy ass question because at this point, it's fucked. Like because it's all

Christopher: 37:09

Yeah. And that's what that's what she got to. She's like, look. We might as well just go ahead, but but so many things have so many ruptures have happened. Yeah.

Christopher: 37:19

Relationally

Christian: 37:19

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher: 37:20

You feel like you were unsafe. And so, you know, we should do this, and I was just like, okay. You know, initially, I was in a moment. I was just like, okay. I guess, you know, we can do that.

Christopher: 37:31

I guess, you know, I mean, you you you make a valid case, and we should we should have sex.

Christian: 37:34

That's such a weird story. Talk to you about sex.

Christopher: 37:37

I felt very felt very afraid. Mhmm. Because even though she was, quote, unquote, a virgin in the in the in the sense of not having vaginal sex and I would be you know, when we thought we were getting married, I was like, oh, yeah.

Whitney: 37:50

That's crazy.

Christopher: 37:51

Yeah. So because

Whitney: 37:51

I know who this person is and that's crazy that you thought that.

Christopher: 37:54

Well. Well.

Whitney: 37:56

But, you know, different time you. Different time, different place, different people.

Christopher: 37:59

Yep. So we'll talk after the record.

Whitney: 38:01

Oh my god.

Christopher: 38:02

But Do we need to?

Whitney: 38:04

I feel like we've talked about this, but yes.

Christopher: 38:06

Yes. But, you know, so after, you know, when that happened, you know, we was like, okay. And and in moment, I was, like, praying to God. I was like, Lord, let something happen because I because I'm about to do something that's gonna really be not not conducive to my course.

Whitney: 38:20

Not conducive to my course.

Christopher: 38:23

I didn't say all that, but I'm saying it now.

Whitney: 38:25

No. Yeah. The way your brain just talks in alliteration is great. I love this. It's I love it.

Whitney: 38:31

I got it. It's the preacher in you.

Christopher: 38:32

It it is. Absolutely the preacher in you. Brain. So it was just definitely something that's, you know, that's yeah. It just didn't it didn't jive well what I was supposed to be doing in life.

Christopher: 38:42

And as soon as we was about to do it, my mom came in.

Whitney: 38:45

Yes, mother.

Christopher: 38:46

I was like, I was like,

Christian: 38:47

praise Saved.

Christopher: 38:48

I was like, praise god.

Whitney: 38:49

Praise god. Santa.

Christopher: 38:50

Thank you, Jesus.

Christian: 38:51

The the fact that, like

Christopher: 38:53

because, like, I didn't have the wherewithal to, like

Christian: 38:56

Stop it yourself.

Christopher: 38:56

Stop it myself.

Whitney: 38:57

Yeah.

Christopher: 38:58

That's wild.

Whitney: 38:59

Not a ram in a bush.

Christopher: 39:00

It was. It was a moment. It was like, and then she was like, well, you know, we can, you know, we're I'm free next Tuesday. What is it we can do? We can reschedule someone else.

Christopher: 39:10

And then that's when I was like, okay.

Whitney: 39:11

Scheduling sin.

Christopher: 39:13

Now I have to say something. Yeah. Because it's like, okay. That okay. Didn't it didn't happen now, but it was almost like I was like, I'm a give you space so that you can own it.

Christopher: 39:23

I'm not going to get you out. You still have to articulate

Whitney: 39:25

Uh-huh.

Christopher: 39:26

What it is that, you know Absolutely. You should think it. Right. Right. I didn't.

Christopher: 39:30

Yeah. I didn't say if you just still be a bitch.

Whitney: 39:32

So Right. I save No bitch assness.

Christopher: 39:35

Save you to get your balls and say what you need to say. Oh. So if

Christian: 39:39

I gave you time to get your gumption up.

Christopher: 39:41

Right.

Whitney: 39:41

Yeah. Right. I was like, is your gumption located in your testicle?

Christopher: 39:45

That's the testicle of 42.

Christian: 39:46

Yeah. That's good.

Christopher: 39:48

I'm sorry.

Whitney: 39:48

Very man's. Yeah.

Christopher: 39:49

Man. Man. Hey. I am a man.

Whitney: 39:52

You know? I am.

Christopher: 39:54

I am.

Whitney: 39:54

A man. Man. A

Christopher: 39:57

man. I b's. Oh. That was

Whitney: 40:00

creative. Everybody's so creative.

Christopher: 40:03

I was a man.

Whitney: 40:05

Me. Mhmm.

Christian: 40:07

Yes. You be.

Christopher: 40:09

Here we go. Vulnerability with my vocabulary.

Christian: 40:13

Damn it.

Whitney: 40:13

Oh. Not vulnerability with my vocab. Okay.

Christian: 40:16

Yeah. It's

Whitney: 40:17

just in here. Carry on.

Christian: 40:18

All the time.

Christopher: 40:18

My vernacular. I'm sorry. Anyway

Whitney: 40:21

Where are my tiny tomatoes to throw?

Christian: 40:23

Hit the tomato tomato.

Whitney: 40:26

Somebody fetch my fetch my tiny tomatoes.

Christopher: 40:28

Where the

Christian: 40:29

cherry tomatoes at?

Whitney: 40:30

I got some, but they bad. What you need? Oh, right. Tomatoes. Yes.

Whitney: 40:34

Okay.

Christopher: 40:35

Alright. So wow. That's that's wild. I'm a go get them. Not riding the wild.

Christopher: 40:41

Anyway.

Whitney: 40:41

They are wild. They're still on the stem.

Christian: 40:43

Oh, those are the good ones.

Christopher: 40:44

Those are heirloom tomatoes?

Whitney: 40:46

No. Oh, that's Heirloom tomatoes are usually too heavy for the stem. They're something like that. Gotcha.

Christopher: 40:50

Yeah. And I feel like that would hurt.

Whitney: 40:51

Not if they're rotten. It'd just be really gross.

Christopher: 40:54

Exactly. Just my nostrils. Mhmm. Mhmm. So yeah.

Christopher: 40:58

Like, it's it was a it was a moment, like, okay. Well, we could do it next Tuesday. I was like, you know, at that point, it was like, oh, no. I still gotta say shit.

Whitney: 41:05

Mhmm.

Christopher: 41:05

And I was like, I don't trust you. Mhmm. And it was not like she was in for infidelity. It was very much like you have not proven yourself proven yourself trustworthy with all of me. Yeah.

Christopher: 41:20

Because for me, sex was a not just a physical exercise. It was a spiritual, emotional, and psychological experience. I'm trusting you with me inside of you. And if I give that to you, you know, because for me, it was like, well, sex, right, we're locked in. We're we're we're done.

Christopher: 41:36

I took your virginity, so to speak, And so we're locked in. Mhmm. I'm not you know, because that's what I said to me. I was like, I'm not going to. That was my sexual ethic.

Christopher: 41:46

It's like, okay. I'll have sex, but I'm not going to take someone's virginity, so to speak. If that was something they was committed to and they wanted to have through marriage and we end up having sex before marriage, well, I'm marrying you. Oh. Like, that was a Oh.

Christian: 41:59

Oh. Okay.

Whitney: 41:59

No. I'm

Christian: 42:00

just saying. Disclaimer. Disclaimer. Disclaimer. Disclaimer.

Christian: 42:03

This was

Christopher: 42:04

it's not like again, it

Whitney: 42:05

was Chris

Christian: 42:06

sensually. This was Christopher's ethic.

Christopher: 42:07

That was my envy. Past. It was it made sense to me because it was like, okay. Hey.

Whitney: 42:11

Yeah. Alright.

Christian: 42:12

It's not a

Whitney: 42:12

current no. No. No. Not a current

Christian: 42:14

say at all.

Christopher: 42:14

But it was very much

Whitney: 42:15

We're talking in memory.

Christopher: 42:17

We're talking in memory. Yeah. You know, and not so much like, I'm marrying you, like, against your will, but it's like Yeah.

Whitney: 42:21

That's the plan.

Christopher: 42:22

If we go down this path Yeah. And we end up and we feel like, you know, this is it. We're here for each other, and then we end up having sex and, you know, this is a, you know Right.

Whitney: 42:31

That is my anticipation.

Christopher: 42:32

That is my anticipation.

Whitney: 42:33

I wouldn't do this if I did not anticipate doing that with you. But because I can't anticipate doing that with you, I will not take your virginity.

Christopher: 42:39

I will not take your virginity.

Christian: 42:40

But that's a level of vulnerability, like, to to tell somebody no.

Whitney: 42:45

Yeah. Right.

Christian: 42:47

But when you're already in relationship and be like, I don't want to do this. Yeah.

Whitney: 42:52

Right? That's that's the end, to be honest. Like,

Christopher: 42:55

that's the end. After that, we not many months after that. When I say I don't trust you, and then there's no Well,

Christian: 42:59

I may even believe it.

Christopher: 43:00

Relationship with you.

Whitney: 43:02

You said what you're saying. You said what you changed. I mean, even I don't know.

Christian: 43:05

Yeah. Obviously, that was like a Mhmm.

Whitney: 43:06

You know,

Christian: 43:06

that was a dating relationship, but I even in marriage and not if you say you don't trust somebody, you're already married to them. That's

Whitney: 43:13

Why did you do that? Well, you know what? People people can't trust you. Right. Can be revoked.

Whitney: 43:17

Right.

Christopher: 43:17

That's what happened when we Yeah. It

Whitney: 43:19

can be revoked.

Christian: 43:19

Not revoked. Yeah. But I mean, even just like the the act of telling somebody, I don't want to do something Yeah. Regardless of why you don't wanna do it, that's vulnerable.

Whitney: 43:29

No. It is.

Christian: 43:30

Like, the the ability to say no Yes. The confidence that when you say no, you won't be rejected or harmed.

Whitney: 43:37

And that your no isn't is sufficient enough. This is somebody

Christian: 43:40

explanation. Somebody won't try to override your no.

Whitney: 43:43

Correct.

Christian: 43:44

Like, that is a level of intimacy that is I don't think we talk about it enough. Yeah. That, like, it's like, well, we talk about it and people but people why didn't she just say no? The vagina has teeth that come out if you get raped and also the bullshit. What?

Christian: 43:59

You don't remember that one? Oh, my God. Tada.

Whitney: 44:03

There was a movie called listen. This was a conversation I had years ago. It's a movie called Tada and it's about a girl. She got teeth and how

Christopher: 44:08

to do it.

Christian: 44:09

Anyway, but but the idea is stress

Christopher: 44:12

be disturbed.

Whitney: 44:12

Look it up later. No.

Christian: 44:13

I I have an idea. I vaguely remember you talking about that.

Christopher: 44:16

Them. But,

Christian: 44:16

like, the the fact that there are so many people who are, like, number one, they're like, oh, well, yeah. People people ignore you when you say no. But, like, your body can take care of it. And it's like, that is not how body What? And the fact that when people don't say no, people are like, why didn't you just say no?

Whitney: 44:38

How's the life gonna be respected either way?

Christian: 44:40

I didn't Right.

Whitney: 44:41

There's other pieces that come along with that.

Christian: 44:43

I was afraid. Right. That is a valid reason not to be vulnerable. Absolutely. Because no is vulnerable.

Whitney: 44:50

No is vulnerable.

Christopher: 44:51

Oh, yeah. You can

Whitney: 44:52

see see on a shirt.

Christopher: 44:54

No. It's vulnerable.

Whitney: 44:55

No. It's vulnerable. Because it is.

Christian: 44:56

It is. Right? Whether you give a reason or not. And particularly if

Whitney: 45:00

you don't. Particularly if you don't. Because you got then you gotta stand in it. You just gotta stand in it.

Christian: 45:05

Without justification. Letters and a period. Exactly.

Christopher: 45:08

Right.

Whitney: 45:09

Yeah. And

Christopher: 45:10

I yeah. Yeah. If I didn't know if I why I didn't wanna do it, I probably would have been like, yeah. I just don't feel it. Yeah.

Christopher: 45:18

I knew why. Yeah. Like, either I didn't know or the words came in that moment.

Whitney: 45:22

Yeah. No. That's right.

Christopher: 45:23

You know what? I don't trust you. And I was like

Christian: 45:26

The the beginning of

Christopher: 45:27

your moment. I was like

Whitney: 45:30

Like, damn. I really don't trust you.

Christian: 45:31

That's that's your ADHD busting out right there.

Christopher: 45:34

With me. Yeah. Oh, I don't trust you.

Whitney: 45:37

But even, like, sitting with yourself to get to that point, that's a vulnerability. Right? Especially as a man, especially you're like, okay. This is my girl. Like, this is where we're going.

Whitney: 45:45

You know, it doesn't feel right. Instead of just being like, fuck it.

Christian: 45:48

Right.

Whitney: 45:48

Which I feel like

Christian: 45:49

it's a lot of I should I should want this, so I'm going to do this. Right.

Whitney: 45:53

Like, you really sat with yourself to try to, like, figure it out.

Christopher: 45:57

Yeah.

Whitney: 45:57

Right? Like, what why is this weird for me? Like, why and it it got to the, oh, shit. I don't trust this bitch.

Christopher: 46:04

Right. You're fooling yourself not to be safe for me, so I I won't I won't give that to you. Like, it's it's weird.

Christian: 46:12

Yeah.

Christopher: 46:13

Now that I think about it, I was like, man, like, I didn't anyway, Google Cloud.

Whitney: 46:17

Curious if there was any, like, attempt to repair that, like, whatever the trust rupture was. And, like, if not, is that what led to the breakup?

Christopher: 46:26

Yeah. It was. It was it was the it was it was just a series that I couldn't explain it beyond that. Yeah. But there were moments, pivotal moments in relationship leading up to it that spoke to me about, hey.

Christopher: 46:39

She's not the partner you need.

Whitney: 46:41

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Christopher: 46:42

Like, she's not willing to show up. She's not willing to show up in a way that I need.

Whitney: 46:46

Yeah.

Christopher: 46:46

It's not to say that she didn't show up the way she thought she should or whatever. Mhmm. But I

Christian: 46:51

It wasn't working.

Christopher: 46:52

You know, like, you know, I don't need no Proverbs 31 woman bullshit. I just I need you to show up for me.

Whitney: 46:58

Yeah. Show for yourself.

Christopher: 46:59

Yeah. Show up for yourself. And then

Whitney: 47:01

show up for me.

Christopher: 47:01

You didn't show up for me. And so there there there was a a breakdown in in seeing that. And, you know, at first, I was very much head over heels and, like, very much like, oh, this is it. We're gonna get and and then as the relationship unfolded, it was very much real at that moment. Oh, okay.

Christopher: 47:19

We're not ready.

Whitney: 47:20

Yeah.

Christopher: 47:21

Yeah. Actually, not ready. We're not fit. We'll never do that.

Whitney: 47:26

Sometimes vulnerability will get you there.

Christian: 47:27

It will. Right.

Whitney: 47:28

It now this is a bad fit. We are not aligned.

Christopher: 47:31

We're not aligned.

Christian: 47:32

Yeah. No.

Christopher: 47:32

What I need and what you need are two different things. And she's found somebody else that that matches her

Christian: 47:37

Sweat up.

Christopher: 47:38

Didn't she? Whatever that looks like.

Whitney: 47:40

I'm glad we're not on camera. Whitney.

Christian: 47:44

You can't tell the people.

Whitney: 47:47

I just didn't. Give it a fight.

Christopher: 47:49

But, you know, it's I mean, more power to them. Everybody gotta find out how to work it out in this line.

Whitney: 47:53

Your own way.

Christopher: 47:54

I don't I don't have no ill will towards I just knew we didn't match up. And it

Christian: 47:58

was my

Christopher: 47:58

fault for stepping over that line, for being more than friends when we probably should've just stayed surface level. Yeah. That's all that we could handle about each

Whitney: 48:08

other. Mhmm.

Christopher: 48:09

If I hadn't if I hadn't gone down like, this is me admitting fraud. It's not just our own truth. I'm like, no. I open

Whitney: 48:17

myself up to experience

Christopher: 48:18

the distrust. Yeah. Because I crossed some lines initially that should not have been crossed. Mhmm. And so I was for me in that moment, I was really feel like I was getting back with it.

Christopher: 48:27

I put out.

Christian: 48:28

Probably quite positive. You guys a lot

Whitney: 48:31

of stress in my world in that period. So this

Christian: 48:34

this We've all known each other entirely.

Whitney: 48:36

Long and in different ways.

Christian: 48:38

Yeah.

Whitney: 48:38

So before Chris was Christian's husband, we knew each other differently. Right.

Christopher: 48:42

Yes.

Whitney: 48:43

So through, like, other

Christopher: 48:45

Right.

Whitney: 48:45

Mutual relationships. And so yeah. So, like You wouldn't serve similar friend circles. Yes. Yes.

Christopher: 48:49

We'll say that so it don't sound

Whitney: 48:51

Exactly. In turn 15. Correct. We were in similar friend circles that did were not inclusive of Christian. Correct.

Christopher: 48:56

Mhmm.

Whitney: 48:57

And so, like, Christian's always been on one side. So it's like I had two arms. Christian was on one arm and then, like, this friend circle and Chris was on a different arm.

Christian: 49:04

Of the friends.

Whitney: 49:05

Yeah. And so then when these two things got together, mama was dubious.

Christian: 49:09

Fair. Yeah.

Whitney: 49:10

Because I was like

Christian: 49:11

because I didn't know any

Whitney: 49:12

of this. This nigga reached havoc. He wreaked havoc in the circle. I know you're not talking about Chris Barnes.

Christopher: 49:19

Oh, it's not my government name.

Whitney: 49:21

No. Well, no. That's not all of it. And I won't I don't even remember all of it.

Christian: 49:24

I'd yeah. We're not even What

Whitney: 49:25

about No. No. No. Yeah.

Christopher: 49:26

Yeah. Not Chris Barnes.

Whitney: 49:27

You you've said your name on other episodes.

Christopher: 49:29

I have.

Whitney: 49:30

Oh, he said his last name. Oh, okay. Right. Right.

Christopher: 49:32

So he

Whitney: 49:32

put it together. Yeah. But yeah. And so no. He he wreaked a lot of havoc, but, you know, growth.

Christopher: 49:38

My actions wreaked havoc. I didn't.

Whitney: 49:40

And you were the person committed them. Therefore,

Christian: 49:42

like Discing languages?

Whitney: 49:44

Therefore, like and such as

Christian: 49:45

Okay. Distancing language. I did not have sexual relations

Whitney: 49:48

With that woman. To find teenage.

Christopher: 49:51

And I didn't.

Whitney: 49:53

Well, you didn't.

Christian: 49:53

Age with teen in it. What the fuck?

Whitney: 49:55

Somebody called Robert and and Yeah. This is Don't don't call Robert.

Christian: 49:58

But I mean

Christopher: 49:58

Are you too old?

Christian: 49:59

Don't don't nobody call this.

Whitney: 50:01

No one call Robert.

Christian: 50:01

Uh-huh. No one call Robert. But I mean, like, I've had similar experiences in the past where it's like, you know, there are things I'm in this relationship, and it feels like it has to be this way because I ascribe to a certain type of purity culture bullshit as well. And a lot probably more than both of y'all put together.

Whitney: 50:20

Yeah. That's fair.

Christian: 50:21

And so I have this idea about the person I'm supposed to be with and how it's supposed to work. And it's like, you have to at some point, it was like, I am trying to make this work. I'm trying to make this work. I'm trying to make this work. And when it didn't work, it wasn't because I broke it off.

Christian: 50:35

It was because they did.

Whitney: 50:36

Mhmm.

Christian: 50:36

And so I'm devastated. Right? Like, oh, no. Whatever shall I do? And so then it's like, wait a minute.

Christian: 50:43

Am I devastated? Was I happy?

Whitney: 50:46

Was I happy?

Christian: 50:48

Did I even want that? Did I feel like I had to do it because other people said I had to do it?

Whitney: 50:53

Or because it made sense on paper.

Christian: 50:55

It made sense on paper. We looked good together.

Whitney: 50:59

There were a lot of similarities. Did you

Christopher: 51:01

think you had a

Whitney: 51:01

couple of coinky dinks. Yeah. They were You got them anyway, and that's not fair. I want name coinky dinks. You wanna make dinks?

Christian: 51:08

I still got my name coinky dink.

Whitney: 51:10

You did.

Christian: 51:11

But it was actually for me instead of, you know

Whitney: 51:13

Instead of it slightly removed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian: 51:16

But, yeah, like, there was a lot of there are so many times in my life, and it's all for me, it's it's like it's not like after the fact. It's after the fact. Like, you're talking about four, five, six years later where I'm like, I didn't actually want that, or I really wanted that. If I coulda done it, why did I think I couldn't do it? Why did I think I had to do this?

Christopher: 51:39

That's how I feel too. I was like, yeah.

Christian: 51:41

You just you turn yourself inside out and into another person. Yeah. And you don't even realize it sometimes because you're not able to be honest with yourself. Yes. Right?

Christian: 51:51

And that, you know, like like he says, like, should've been friends with

Christopher: 51:54

you.

Christian: 51:54

That's that's what I should've been.

Christopher: 51:56

Should've been friends.

Christian: 51:57

But there's a narrative that's planning in the back of your head. There's a story going on that's, like, you need to pursue this because x, y, and z, and timetables, and ticking clocks and all this other bullshit. Right? And it's like or, you know, you could not you could you even do you even want to? Right.

Whitney: 52:16

Or is this an implanted narrative?

Christian: 52:17

And I

Christopher: 52:18

was gonna say too.

Christian: 52:19

Inception. Exactly.

Christopher: 52:21

And this may be something we could edit out or whatever, but I I will say this. There is, a certain level. Now I'm I'm great that I am right, but there are certain level of regret that I was not present enough to have enough fun when I had the fun.

Whitney: 52:35

Dude. So it's funny. It was

Christopher: 52:38

like I was so caught up in trying to be whole. I was like, you know, I

Christian: 52:41

It wasn't even enjoyable because I'm already

Christopher: 52:43

Right.

Whitney: 52:43

No. That's

Christian: 52:44

what it did. It could have been.

Whitney: 52:45

No. That's real. So listen.

Christopher: 52:47

I mean, I could've gotten it in. It was, you know

Whitney: 52:49

Me and Jessica. So Jessica, I'm a shout out Jessica. Hey, Jess. That's my other best friend who is also one of Christian's good friends. She is, a well loved person in our community.

Whitney: 52:57

Me and Jessica talk about this all the time. Right. That, like, our twenties were wasted on being holy. Right. Like, it was just For no reason.

Whitney: 53:06

For no reason. We was just out here going to bible study on Friday night and, like, making sandwiches to give to the homeless on Saturday night. So or Saturday morning. And then we would be, you know, either hanging out with each other or hanging out with the group, doing real holy shit on Saturday night so we could go to church on fucking Sunday. Like, it was such a holy experience that, like, we didn't get to have our Hoenn experience until we were in our thirties.

Whitney: 53:30

Right? Because then we were like

Christopher: 53:32

Right. Oh,

Whitney: 53:33

oh, here and here's the thing. Like, I I had some fun. I didn't but the fun wasn't without guilt.

Christopher: 53:38

Right. That's that's part. It's like

Whitney: 53:39

I had guilty fun in my twenties.

Christopher: 53:42

Sex, but it was like I didn't I didn't I wasn't fully present in the

Whitney: 53:45

Right. Because I was worried about my repentance.

Christian: 53:47

There's always something in the back of your head.

Christopher: 53:49

Yeah. It's like, no. That's my conditioning.

Whitney: 53:52

It's my conditioning. Like, I'm not being convicted. I'm being constrained.

Christopher: 53:56

I'm being constrained.

Christian: 53:57

And I think, like, the thing that is most annoying about that is because I was so vigorously conditioned to have the voice in my in the back of my head. It didn't shut the fuck up when I got married.

Whitney: 54:09

And it never okay. So it doesn't. It doesn't. Like, that

Christian: 54:13

you it doesn't. Literally the construct that y'all said that I was allowed to have fun in, and now I still can't, goddamn it. That's not how

Whitney: 54:19

it so, like, you know, we can talk about it like that. I so the one time I was married.

Christian: 54:23

Yeah. That one time and baby

Whitney: 54:25

That one time and for several years, I was married and, like, had been with this person prior years prior to that. Like, we had a very, like, holy Mhmm. Well, I ain't gonna say very. It was holy enough relationship. The the what are sex boundaries?

Whitney: 54:39

Right?

Christopher: 54:39

Right. Right. Right.

Christian: 54:40

How far can we go?

Whitney: 54:42

Like, be trying to get your brain out of the, like, this is bad. This is sinful. This is whatever the fuck. Whatever. So I know.

Whitney: 54:51

But I mean, I think it goes with vulnerability.

Christian: 54:53

It does. You know?

Whitney: 54:54

But I'm just, like, I remember having conversations because we also had, like, a Christian group of friends. I remember, like, us having this conversation within the group. And, like, one of the guys being, like, I was taught he was, like, I had to make self like, sex disgusting Yep. In my mind, so I didn't wanna do it. Right.

Whitney: 55:09

It's not now all of a sudden magically not disgusting.

Christopher: 55:12

Right.

Christian: 55:12

This is a story I have told myself. I believe it. Exactly.

Whitney: 55:15

It it's the narrative that I needed to, like, keep my behavior in check. Right?

Christopher: 55:19

Right.

Christian: 55:19

It

Whitney: 55:20

doesn't magically like, you have to undo the stuff

Christopher: 55:23

that you do.

Christian: 55:23

Knot that thing. It's like a

Whitney: 55:24

And it's deep and hard. It's a hard knot.

Christian: 55:27

You know when you know when you put a necklace that's got a strand

Whitney: 55:30

That's little

Christian: 55:31

bit of a box. And then it gets all them little knots and it's in a bigger knot. And you literally need a safety pin to try to pick that shit apart and then your hands start cramping and you got to come back to it later. Sometimes you just throw the necklace away. You can't do that with your sexuality.

Christian: 55:43

You got to pick that

Whitney: 55:45

shit apart, damn it. You have to pick it.

Christian: 55:47

I mean, or suffer or something.

Whitney: 55:48

We stop suffering in sex. That's that's a waste. That's very much

Christopher: 55:51

a waste. Just like

Christian: 55:52

That's incredibly liberating. Just like our just like us and our Calories

Whitney: 55:56

may be burned. Calories do be burned. So but still But it's

Christian: 55:59

supposed to be fun, man. I look nerve endings. Like, pleasure. Right?

Whitney: 56:03

Like and so I think there's even what I had to learn was being vulnerable enough not only within my mind, but within my body enough to experience actual pleasure. Like, it took me years to get to the point where I was like, not only is this shit good, but also, I'm that bitch. Like, I'm that bitch and I'm that nigga. Right? Like, when I said it, I said it and I said it with my chest.

Whitney: 56:26

Okay? It took me years to get there because, like, being pleasured and having, like, this pleasurable experience in that way is a type of vulnerability. Extreme. It's an extreme especially when you've been conditioned. Vulnerability.

Whitney: 56:42

And so, like, even even venturing to unpack that with someone

Christopher: 56:47

Right.

Whitney: 56:47

Is incredibly vulnerable. It Which is crazy. I don't think I ever had a moment where I was like, I am actively unpacking this with you. I just decided one day.

Christian: 56:57

And you started.

Whitney: 56:58

Yeah. And I was just like, no. Fuck it. I did. Now I got good feedback.

Christian: 57:02

What?

Whitney: 57:02

Wait a minute. Like, I they were like, what the fuck happened to you? Me? Well Mhmm. It's all staunted.

Whitney: 57:10

Several things, actually.

Christian: 57:11

But no. I mean, I me and Chris are I I'm gonna say me and Chris. I I tend to probably be more open about this, but Chris doesn't usually shut me up. Let's see.

Christopher: 57:22

Editing. No. Apple no.

Christian: 57:25

But, I mean, like, there's a like I said, I struggle with it even in marriage. And, obviously, Chris is if you didn't know, Chris is the only person I've ever been married to. What? And so Yes.

Christopher: 57:34

I'm a Christian.

Christian: 57:37

And so the the conversations that we've had to have, right, as I go to the process of deconstructing, the vulnerability frequently I'm literally breaking down in tears anytime we have discussions about sex, which ain't sexy. It's not. I fully admit it.

Christopher: 57:54

No. I mean, it gets us there, but Yeah.

Whitney: 57:56

It gets you where you need to go.

Christopher: 57:57

You're not gonna have sex while you're crying.

Christian: 57:59

No. Thank you. Thank you.

Christopher: 58:02

You know, it's a it's, you know But I understand. Emotional buildup won't take for sure, though. It's But

Christian: 58:07

I mean but the but the reality of

Whitney: 58:09

it The trust that we build in that moment is sexy.

Christopher: 58:12

Right.

Christian: 58:12

Yes. Right.

Christopher: 58:13

Because

Christian: 58:14

the vulnerability that is required for me to tell him what it is that I'm thinking, what it is that I'm feeling, what is maybe so emotional that I'm now crying, just thinking about taking my clothes off because that's a real thing for me. Yeah. Like, the fact that I have to talk to him about that, tell him what I'm thinking, tell him what I'm feeling, like, the amount of feelings, the fear, the shame, the guilt that's coming up. And, like, also just me feeling like a fucking idiot. Like, I that's really how I be I'm like, this is so stupid.

Whitney: 58:44

That hurts.

Christopher: 58:45

Right.

Whitney: 58:45

Like Oh, no. Like, that hurts, Christian.

Christian: 58:47

That's how it feels.

Whitney: 58:48

I know.

Christian: 58:49

I feel like an idiot. It's the same thing happened with the stupid credit card. But that's a that's a that's a a different subject for another day.

Whitney: 58:56

Yeah. Yeah.

Christian: 58:56

Yeah. But, like, just, like, the fact that I grew up and was socialized into this narrative that has put me in a place where I can't enjoy my own body in marriage is so fucked up. It is. And now I, at my big age of 38, have to figure out how to undo it piece by piece.

Whitney: 59:20

But you're doing it.

Christian: 59:21

I am. And you talking about take

Christopher: 59:26

Mhmm. Yes.

Christian: 59:27

It takes so much more effort. Yeah.

Christopher: 59:31

We are better than what we were when we first started. Oh. And it's been it's we're on our seventh year.

Christian: 59:36

Nine thousand percent? Yeah.

Christopher: 59:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I will say that.

Whitney: 59:39

Highest dream.

Christopher: 59:40

It's it's

Christian: 59:41

it's coming.

Christopher: 59:42

Yeah.

Christian: 59:43

But, like, for me and I'm I'm

Christopher: 59:44

on my own journey with that too. Yeah.

Whitney: 59:46

Because I guess

Christian: 59:46

his own journey with that too. But, I mean, for me, it just there's, you know, there's a there's a part of me is like, if only you hadn't fucked me up.

Whitney: 59:54

Yeah. Imagine.

Christian: 59:56

If only you hadn't fucked me up. Like, you know?

Christopher: 01:00:00

Yeah. And and and I wanna say this too. It's like, while I like I said, in jest, I lament or we lament about, oh, you know, we should have really, you know, been free from those mental shackles to be able to be present and enjoy. I do feel like in so many ways, those mindsets have been helpful in the shaping your form of identity in ways that maybe they were harmful or otherwise. So I want to express a level of gratitude

Whitney: 01:00:27

I actually would like you to clarify what you mean by that.

Christopher: 01:00:29

Yeah. So for me, I'll I'll speak with me. Yeah. So, you know, maybe, having those mindsets led me to where I'm in a better position to be your husband. Mhmm.

Christopher: 01:00:43

In my way, I'm packing this together. Mhmm. Mhmm. And my one of my things in my in my in my theological stuff is that,

Whitney: 01:00:52

Theological negative?

Christopher: 01:00:54

Yeah. Theological negative. There you go. Part of my theological premises is that God wastes nothing.

Whitney: 01:01:00

Yeah. Absolutely. Your framework.

Christopher: 01:01:02

Right. Framework. Thank you.

Whitney: 01:01:03

That's the

Christian: 01:01:03

word you wanted.

Whitney: 01:01:04

See, this

Christopher: 01:01:05

is why I'm not academia because I don't

Whitney: 01:01:06

have the

Christopher: 01:01:07

best words when I need to

Whitney: 01:01:08

Shut up.

Christian: 01:01:09

Shut up and finish your thought.

Whitney: 01:01:11

We're not doing any more self deprecating things. Babe.

Christian: 01:01:14

That's not true. But we go we go call it out every time.

Whitney: 01:01:18

We go call it out. That's why

Christopher: 01:01:20

my mama

Christian: 01:01:20

says stop doing that shit.

Christopher: 01:01:22

She did.

Christian: 01:01:22

Thank you, miss Melinda. Yeah.

Whitney: 01:01:24

Vulnerability TM. Okay. So trademark it everything. Just think

Christian: 01:01:27

of what you trademark everything?

Whitney: 01:01:29

Millennials trademark. Damn. Let me just stop. You cannot make money

Christian: 01:01:34

off of that. I mean, you can,

Whitney: 01:01:35

but, like, stop.

Christian: 01:01:36

Stop it. He can try.

Whitney: 01:01:38

Don't be a jerk.

Christopher: 01:01:39

Hey. You're a jerk. You need to come up with a better solution while I do this. Anyway, what was I saying? Oh, yeah.

Christopher: 01:01:47

It's like, I I'm I'm grateful for what it is because it's like, you know, again, that build me up to where I am now. And I think some of those things that couldn't happen, those stories that I have, the experiences I have, the lessons that I've learned, Maybe it could have come a different way.

Christian: 01:02:02

Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher: 01:02:03

But for the path that I have, god has a way of bringing that back around. Yeah. If you allow him to again, if you are vulnerable with him, with them, god can use all the situations in your life Absolutely. To turn it around and bless you for your good as long as you're able to be honest and vulnerable with him. Yeah.

Christopher: 01:02:24

So for me, I wanna, you know, I guess, say that because I you know, a lot of us, you know, was like, no. You know? I'm not saying that I wish I would have been a philanderer. That's, like, it's not what I'm saying.

Christian: 01:02:35

Yeah. No.

Christopher: 01:02:36

I'm saying That's not what I'm going on. More expanded sexual ethics such that

Whitney: 01:02:40

Yeah.

Christopher: 01:02:40

Whenever I did find myself in those situations, it would have it was okay. It would have just been casual and we just moved on. Yeah. But now, I you know, there was this grief and this guilt attached to it, you know, that that didn't need to be in that moment. Mhmm.

Christopher: 01:02:54

And, you know, but God uses all things.

Whitney: 01:02:58

Well, and I think that's something beautiful about that, like, about life. Oftentimes, when we go, like, going through the hard thing gives you a deeper understanding of the hard thing. Absolutely. This is why, like, when we talk about, like, the most oppressed people having the clearest view of the system Mhmm. That's why.

Whitney: 01:03:14

Right? Like, we've had to actively unlearn and work and call things a thing because we're experiencing the most of of the thing.

Christopher: 01:03:21

The weight of it.

Whitney: 01:03:22

Right. So, like, white people can't describe whiteness because they are, in fact, white.

Christopher: 01:03:26

They're fish in a way.

Whitney: 01:03:27

Right? It's the people that are subjected to the thing. So, like, in this context, like, sexual repression, let's just call it that.

Christopher: 01:03:33

Yep. Yeah.

Whitney: 01:03:34

Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, if you've never been sexually repressed, there are certain components and things that might not be as easy for you to grasp because it's just the air for you.

Christopher: 01:03:42

Right.

Whitney: 01:03:43

Whereas, like, people have had to work for it.

Christian: 01:03:45

And work through it.

Whitney: 01:03:46

And work through it? Yeah. Like, there's more that because, like, you have to unpack. And when you unpack, you see all the components.

Christian: 01:03:53

Yes. Mhmm. Yes. And I mean, there is my my lament is definitely for the guilt and shame of it all.

Whitney: 01:04:00

Yeah. Mhmm.

Christian: 01:04:01

And the lack of care Mhmm. And nuance that went in to building narratives that would allow you to make good choices hard stop. Right?

Whitney: 01:04:15

Yes.

Christian: 01:04:15

And so the idea that we have that the only good choice is to not have sex until you get married. Trash. Right? I disagree with it as, like, as a general idea Mhmm. But not not because I feel like people should just fuck whoever they want.

Christian: 01:04:30

Like, I mean, you can do what you want, but because I feel like there are better ways to help people choose not to have sex with the whole planet, if that's your goal. Yeah.

Christopher: 01:04:42

Right. Or or if this goal. There's other ways of circumventing, say, teen pregnancy.

Christian: 01:04:46

If if that's what

Christopher: 01:04:47

you're trying to avoid. That was what it was to do with teen pregnancy. I

Christian: 01:04:50

don't know.

Whitney: 01:04:51

They're like, what do a soul tie gotta do with teen pregnancy?

Christopher: 01:04:53

They just make sure. I mean, it's

Whitney: 01:04:54

They literally make sure.

Christian: 01:04:55

Well, they they were trying to fear monitor. Right?

Whitney: 01:04:57

They were fear monitor.

Christopher: 01:04:57

It was it was it was also addressing a soul a societal ill at the time.

Christian: 01:05:02

I don't maybe

Christopher: 01:05:04

was for them in the black church was teen pregnancy.

Whitney: 01:05:07

I mean, I but I think that shit goes way back before that was a big to do.

Christian: 01:05:11

Yeah. I'm sure.

Whitney: 01:05:12

I don't I don't

Christian: 01:05:12

know if they quite line up. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't

Whitney: 01:05:15

know that. I think correlation, not causation.

Christopher: 01:05:17

Right. Right. Right. That's what I mean. Correlation and it's like this is an added situation.

Christopher: 01:05:22

I feel like beauty culture is started with white evangelicalism Mhmm. And then black people was like, okay. We need to take that as well. Yeah. Not only that, these sex issues are disproportionately affecting our community, and we need to have a sound because

Christian: 01:05:36

we don't have money.

Christopher: 01:05:37

To it. Yeah. And the white people have done all the work, and so we'll just take it.

Christian: 01:05:41

We'll just borrow it. Yeah.

Christopher: 01:05:42

Yeah. And and then, of course, in the Pentecostal circles, they're soul ties.

Whitney: 01:05:46

Yeah. Pentecostal, baby. We talked about

Christopher: 01:05:47

soul ties. Mystical spinnership. I didn't

Christian: 01:05:49

get as much of that one.

Christopher: 01:05:50

What's that?

Christian: 01:05:50

How the

Whitney: 01:05:51

hell did you not? We were in the same cult.

Christian: 01:05:52

I don't remember that one.

Whitney: 01:05:54

No. Oh, I remember.

Christian: 01:05:55

Ask me about soul ties, and I don't remember that. I heard about soul ties in God.

Christopher: 01:05:57

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: 01:05:58

Oh, no. I I

Christopher: 01:05:59

Y'all's church was

Whitney: 01:06:00

there. I absolutely

Christopher: 01:06:01

You also went to a charismatic church.

Whitney: 01:06:03

That was much later, baby.

Christopher: 01:06:04

Much later?

Whitney: 01:06:05

That was I was in high school by the

Christopher: 01:06:06

time I heard about soul ties at the

Whitney: 01:06:09

Soul tie language is absolutely okay. That one. Were you paying attention? Had you checked out because you were like, I am a an asexual being? Yeah.

Christopher: 01:06:15

I'm not

Whitney: 01:06:15

supposed to do it. That shit don't matter. I've already agreed not to

Christian: 01:06:17

do it. I I may have, like, asexual my ass out of that conversation. Yeah. But, like, that

Whitney: 01:06:22

thing Absolutely. Because, like, that was a big conversation. It was the, like It

Christian: 01:06:25

definitely depends on

Whitney: 01:06:26

Do you wanna be tied to all these people? And it's

Christopher: 01:06:28

just why Baptist. Why are we talking about this? This is very mystical. Yeah. We we

Christian: 01:06:32

don't do this. We were baptist.

Christopher: 01:06:34

I I understand. But in my country, we were not we were baptist.

Christian: 01:06:37

No. You you were Baptist. Baptist.

Christopher: 01:06:40

Baptist Methodist. Heard. I got the Holy Ghost outside the Baptist church.

Whitney: 01:06:43

Well, I didn't get the Holy Ghost in my Baptist church. I got that in that charismatic

Christopher: 01:06:47

spirit. We got the same

Whitney: 01:06:49

Yeah.

Christopher: 01:06:49

Same same Holy Ghost.

Whitney: 01:06:50

Oh, yeah. We did. We talked about the place. Same Holy Ghost. Same same brand.

Whitney: 01:06:54

It's barely from the same dispensary. Same brand.

Christopher: 01:06:57

But the same dispensaries.

Christian: 01:06:58

But yeah. I mean, like, it's to your point. Right? Whatever it is that you are trying to combat in Right. When it comes to sexuality in the church.

Christian: 01:07:08

We are on a tangent. Whatever you're trying to combat, I fully believe that there are better ways to do every single one of them. Absolutely. If you're trying to combat teen pregnancy, telling people that everybody that they have sex with turns them into a chewed wad of gum is not the best way to go about it.

Christopher: 01:07:23

Very terrible, Hillary.

Whitney: 01:07:24

It actually is not evidence based. It's not well known. Evidence based is, like, education. Mhmm. Right?

Whitney: 01:07:31

Education education is not gonna get you, like, oh, no sex. But is that really the goal? The goal is, like, smart responsible decisions about sex.

Christian: 01:07:37

Which is why I'm

Christopher: 01:07:38

saying, like, end of personhood that we need to

Christian: 01:07:41

be teaching. Yeah. At the end of the day, like, if I teach someone, hey, anybody that you want to be vulnerable within that way, they should be willing to be vulnerable with you similarly. Anybody that you are would like to be in relationship with should be reciprocating some of the energy you're putting out. If you're putting out I am open and they're putting up wall No.

Christian: 01:08:04

Baby, not

Whitney: 01:08:05

Or y'all open in different ways. Right? I think about this as like a Mismatch. Yes. I think about this as a single person now.

Whitney: 01:08:11

Right? So, like, if I'm talking to someone. Uh-huh. And, like, it's like, oh, shit. There's a lot of tension in this bitch.

Whitney: 01:08:17

Right? Like, okay. But, like, what what's the what is the tension? Like, what and what's the intention behind

Christian: 01:08:22

the tension?

Whitney: 01:08:23

Right? Like, is is it just sexual tension? Because if it is, okay, let's call it sexual tension. We're gonna we can resolve that quickly. And be done.

Whitney: 01:08:29

Right. But if this is, like, beyond sexual tension, right, it's something else or, like, it it need to be even. I believe in evenness. It needs to be even. So, like, if I like you and you just here for casual, that's not even, and it's not gonna work, and I'm not gonna participate because it's dangerous.

Whitney: 01:08:43

That's unsafe for me.

Christian: 01:08:44

They talk about being unequally yoked, and they really didn't people be confused about what that means, but that's what they talking about, which you're saying.

Christopher: 01:08:51

Right. The the the principle behind that. Right.

Whitney: 01:08:53

It needs to be even. We need to have we need to have aligned intention. We

Christian: 01:08:56

need to be carrying the same load in the same direction.

Whitney: 01:08:58

Yeah. And so that's my thing. So, like, let's say, okay. It's

Christian: 01:09:01

I know what the

Whitney: 01:09:02

load come on. She lives within

Christopher: 01:09:04

the lock load in the same

Whitney: 01:09:06

High. No. My god. But but, like and that's really it. And so, like, you know, having to gain clarity on this is funny.

Whitney: 01:09:16

Having to gain clarity on, like, okay. Also, I won't be liking people like that. So this is this is tough because it's easy to be like, oh, there's sexual addiction. Let's just wrap this up. Right?

Whitney: 01:09:27

Resolved. Like, hey. Let's get there. But when I finally like somebody, I gotta be I could blow. Okay.

Whitney: 01:09:31

Now wait. Need more information. I need I need more information because what I know is, like, I you have potential to disrupt my world. Yeah. Right.

Whitney: 01:09:41

Right? And so, like, do I have potential to disrupt yours? Yeah. Or are you gonna carry on

Christopher: 01:09:48

Right.

Whitney: 01:09:48

Business as usual? Because if that's the case, this cannot be resolved in this way. Right. Because then I'm gonna be placed in a place of, like, risk.

Christian: 01:09:57

Yeah. Alright. So if we have those types of discussions about how we how we enter into relationships, how we choose sexual partners, partners in general, If you want somebody to focus on building good relationships, make them people, encourage them, equip them to be people who are good in relation.

Whitney: 01:10:15

That's right. Make them emotionally

Christian: 01:10:17

intelligent relationship savvy. Vulnerable.

Whitney: 01:10:21

Help them to read self aware

Christian: 01:10:22

self aware.

Christopher: 01:10:24

All of these

Christian: 01:10:25

kind patient, like cultivate that shit.

Christopher: 01:10:29

Yes. Cultivate that.

Christian: 01:10:29

And then tell them before you decide to make a relationship, make sure they're on the same wavelength. And if they're not, pass.

Whitney: 01:10:38

Right. Pass. Puff.

Christopher: 01:10:40

Puff. I

Christian: 01:10:41

know. Maybe don't puff depending on how bad it is bad.

Whitney: 01:10:44

No. That's real. Puffing will get you somewhere else.

Christian: 01:10:46

It can't. It could distract you, B.

Christopher: 01:10:49

It can.

Christian: 01:10:49

Have your brain all discombobulated.

Christopher: 01:10:52

I have I have some time to develop.

Whitney: 01:10:54

I'm sorry. You said that I can't.

Christopher: 01:10:55

Alright.

Christian: 01:10:56

You had some time to develop what?

Christopher: 01:10:58

I had I had some time to develop it because my you know, our our toddler is three.

Christian: 01:11:02

Yeah. I

Christopher: 01:11:03

was just like, you know what? At some point, I want to teach her to be responsible, with her sexuality. But at the same time, I was like, you know, at the very least, if you're going to have sex, at least have a job.

Christian: 01:11:18

That's Chris's rule. What?

Christopher: 01:11:19

On space.

Whitney: 01:11:21

Oh, okay.

Christopher: 01:11:21

Life comes from that. And I Oh, well. Well. Well. Make sense.

Whitney: 01:11:25

I don't

Christopher: 01:11:25

care how much protection you make. You could always live. That's how I got here. They thought they were in the clear. And then here I am.

Christopher: 01:11:31

Boom. Luckily, my my mom was 36.

Whitney: 01:11:34

And had a job.

Christopher: 01:11:34

And had a job. And had a family.

Whitney: 01:11:36

Place. She

Christopher: 01:11:37

could dump me off on. So Well

Whitney: 01:11:39

Yeah. Well

Christopher: 01:11:40

You ain't gonna dump shit off of me.

Christian: 01:11:42

That's your baby.

Christopher: 01:11:43

That's your baby. So if you're gonna have sex

Christian: 01:11:46

You ain't gonna fuck up

Christopher: 01:11:46

my baby. With benefits.

Whitney: 01:11:49

How because somebody's gotta

Christopher: 01:11:50

pay. Just delivery. Have your own spot. You ain't you ain't by You ain't you

Christian: 01:11:52

ain't by You ain't you

Christopher: 01:11:52

ain't by You ain't got it. You ain't got it.

Whitney: 01:11:54

I mean, can I I just wanna tell you, brother, that's not realistic?

Christopher: 01:11:56

I mean, it's not realistic.

Whitney: 01:11:57

It's not realistic.

Christopher: 01:11:59

It's not. Teaching and cultivating remote emotional emotional intelligence and relational. But this is more of a trapdoor. It's like, hey. Yeah.

Christopher: 01:12:06

Yeah. At the very least, if you can't figure all that

Whitney: 01:12:08

But, like, okay. So when we get to college, right, when the spirit is

Christopher: 01:12:12

high You can get a job if you got

Whitney: 01:12:14

if you can't get yourself off a college job, he Oh.

Christopher: 01:12:17

He Go get a guilty look. Go get a trainer.

Christian: 01:12:19

You already you look at look at me in my eyes. This is Christopher's narrative. Okay?

Christopher: 01:12:24

It is Christian.

Christian: 01:12:25

Christian is not gonna let nobody fuck around with her baby or her grandbaby.

Whitney: 01:12:29

Yeah. You

Christian: 01:12:30

understand? Now I Chris ain't either.

Whitney: 01:12:32

So He

Christian: 01:12:32

not either. He talking

Christopher: 01:12:33

shit like he out and then like No. But But it's very much like instill

Christian: 01:12:37

the idea that there is a responsibility There's

Christopher: 01:12:38

a responsibility around it.

Christian: 01:12:40

I I I'm with him in the sphere.

Christopher: 01:12:41

I would love to have I would love to be able to support life that whatever you bring into the world Yeah. Yeah. We'll we'll still be there. Like, it We're gonna be there.

Whitney: 01:12:49

Right? Timeline don't line up with people's, like, sexual exploration.

Christopher: 01:12:52

No. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't.

Whitney: 01:12:55

So but but I think that is something good to have in your mind that, like, this can be a consequence Right. Of this action. So, like, these are the things you need to factor in. That's one aspect of it.

Christian: 01:13:05

It it is an aspect at two which I said. I was like, you know what? If you led with, hey. There is a one of the possible consequences of having sex is that you get pregnant. At the very having heterosexual sex.

Christopher: 01:13:23

Yeah.

Christian: 01:13:24

At the very least clarity. At the very least because

Whitney: 01:13:27

I'm not pregnant.

Christopher: 01:13:28

At There you go.

Christian: 01:13:29

Hollow glow. Alright. Hollow glow. At the very least, you should probably think about whether or not the person you're letting do the sticking Mhmm. Is somebody you wanna parent with.

Christian: 01:13:42

No. That listen. That part.

Whitney: 01:13:44

That was my At the very least.

Christian: 01:13:46

If you led with that, I didn't need to think about no damn soul ties. That's a human task. No.

Whitney: 01:13:51

That's I I think so here's the thing.

Christopher: 01:13:52

I'm not the fucking idiot. I don't know.

Whitney: 01:13:54

I don't know. And I think once I, like, once I exited my early twenties Yeah. Early twenties, you just you're burning. Right? Like, much like Usher.

Whitney: 01:14:02

Multiple ways. Anyway, but, like, once I, like, hit once my brain, my prefrontal cortex developed for real around 25 like, I woke up on the 20 birthday and I say, y'all, I think I'm done. I'm done. I feel like It felt like, oh, I feel less stupid. Now I wasn't done, but I felt less stupid.

Whitney: 01:14:20

Let's do it. Rational decisions. You gotta

Christopher: 01:14:22

handle it.

Whitney: 01:14:23

That happened, that became my thing. It would be like, okay. Can I can I parent with you? Mhmm. Can I parent with you?

Whitney: 01:14:30

And to be honest, I I ain't got I love children. Y'all know this. Yeah. I love children. And I'm very invested in their well-being Yeah.

Whitney: 01:14:38

And how, like, their experience as

Christopher: 01:14:41

children.

Whitney: 01:14:41

Right? Like, I am very that conscious. And, you know, I probably would have been a dope ass mom. Okay. Mhmm.

Whitney: 01:14:46

But I didn't find somebody that I was like, I would be okay co parenting with you until much later. And then even though, like, to this day, I'm like, okay. We probably could have. Me and this person probably couldn't co parent it. You could.

Whitney: 01:15:00

But there was I didn't I didn't feel safe with me with you. Yeah. So that's you know what I'm saying? So that it didn't work. Like, we we could have because we both love kids.

Whitney: 01:15:07

Like, it it would have worked the same way. It would have been much more expensive to have one because gays. I'm gonna

Christopher: 01:15:14

say that relationship that I was telling you about, that happened around my 20 birthday.

Whitney: 01:15:18

See? So I was

Christopher: 01:15:19

like, that's when I was a gay boy.

Whitney: 01:15:20

I was like, you know what? Dang.

Christian: 01:15:22

I'm done. I'm cooked.

Whitney: 01:15:23

I think I'm done. In the best way. Right. Stick a fork in me, bitch. Get the long toothpick.

Whitney: 01:15:28

You

Christian: 01:15:29

yeah.

Whitney: 01:15:29

But like

Christopher: 01:15:30

Started at 24. Broke up at 25. I was like, yeah.

Whitney: 01:15:33

See, and I didn't get married until 25. Right? And I think what I thought in my marriage was like because like the the the dude I married, dope ass dude. Like, really, you know, solid human person. Yeah.

Whitney: 01:15:45

Right? Mhmm. And we got into it, and I was just like, oh, I don't

Christian: 01:15:48

I don't know.

Whitney: 01:15:50

Like, you still a dope person. Right? Like, I you dope. Right? But I don't know that I could parent with you like this.

Whitney: 01:15:56

Like, I don't know that you're showing up in a way for me that I trust.

Christian: 01:16:00

Wire. Yeah.

Whitney: 01:16:00

Right. That I like, all of the labor wouldn't fall on me because I've been very clear with myself and God that, like I'm

Christian: 01:16:06

doing this by myself.

Whitney: 01:16:07

No. And, like, even because then I will also say, well, you can't guarantee that because people die every day. God?

Christian: 01:16:12

God.

Whitney: 01:16:13

If you ever give me a kid, I need a living ass partner.

Christopher: 01:16:16

Right.

Whitney: 01:16:16

At least get me to 17. Hey? Because I'm

Christopher: 01:16:20

not Then he can he can write off to the sunset.

Whitney: 01:16:22

Who is he? Who is what's a he?

Christopher: 01:16:24

You tell me you said give me a part you talking about I thought you're talking about the same dude. You're hurtling or whatever.

Whitney: 01:16:29

No. Oh. I was talking in general. Like the general

Christopher: 01:16:32

You gave me at least until seventeen, and then after seventeen, he can ride off until the sunset with you.

Whitney: 01:16:36

Yeah. Like, I I I

Christopher: 01:16:37

was using the video.

Whitney: 01:16:38

No. But I'm saying this is my current mentality.

Christian: 01:16:40

She was he was continuing the previous No.

Whitney: 01:16:42

I got you. No. Ain't no he.

Christopher: 01:16:44

I understand. Ain't no If

Whitney: 01:16:45

it is, baby. Oh my god. Surprise. Surprise.

Christopher: 01:16:47

I thought that was

Christian: 01:16:48

It was?

Whitney: 01:16:50

What? What happened? What did you no. You said something messy. No.

Whitney: 01:16:54

Hell no. What did you say?

Christian: 01:16:57

You have to play it back.

Whitney: 01:16:59

No. Hell, no. You know what you said.

Christian: 01:17:01

She's just Y'all

Whitney: 01:17:02

hear how my friend be treating me? Mhmm. She listen. And that's it. It's this and I know she says because I was really I thought I hadn't heard her, but the silly look on her fucking face tell me she was being messy.

Whitney: 01:17:14

Oh my god. So I'm a have to listen to this. We don't we I'm I'm a have to listen to the raw footage Alright.

Christian: 01:17:19

To see how you

Whitney: 01:17:20

was a mess towards me, unto me.

Christopher: 01:17:22

Kirsty, you mischievous. You cut away.

Whitney: 01:17:24

She is, which is crazy. Like, I think we're all mischievous in this room. You did. Oh, fuck. Yeah.

Whitney: 01:17:29

You did. That's cute. But no. It's so yeah. It's just it's one of those things, like because also, that's a that's an aspect of vulnerability.

Whitney: 01:17:37

It's like Mhmm. When you raising a kid together, like, people that get along otherwise will be completely fucked over Yeah. With a kid if they're not careful.

Christopher: 01:17:45

Oh, yeah.

Whitney: 01:17:46

So You know?

Christopher: 01:17:47

Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh.

Christian: 01:17:50

I'm a give you a deep side. That's all I got.

Christopher: 01:17:52

Yeah. I was I was trying to I was thinking with that in the last couple of years, I was like, you know what? I I really gotta show up more. Like, this is this is a a self. I don't know if she clocked it, but I clocked it myself.

Christopher: 01:18:03

I was like, you know, I really gotta show the fuck up more. Like, it's you know, there there there's more for variables, but there's not variables, so not evil, but but there are more variables in the equation. And I gotta

Whitney: 01:18:15

Yeah.

Christopher: 01:18:15

I gotta step up.

Whitney: 01:18:16

Absolutely.

Christopher: 01:18:16

It wasn't I was I was not a I'm not a terrible dad. I'm not a therapy dad.

Whitney: 01:18:21

No. But

Christopher: 01:18:21

I was like, no. I could do more. Yeah. And and and, you know, just having them over the vulnerability and just being like, hey. Yeah.

Christian: 01:18:28

Like Seeing yourself.

Christopher: 01:18:30

Seeing myself. Yeah. Yeah. And just being real. Like, I don't like my performance.

Christopher: 01:18:34

If I want to raise

Whitney: 01:18:35

the kind of kid that

Christopher: 01:18:36

I who you say?

Whitney: 01:18:36

Say, come on self eval.

Christopher: 01:18:37

Right. It's like, oh, no. No. No. No.

Christopher: 01:18:38

No. No. No. No. No.

Christopher: 01:18:39

No. No. No. No. No.

Christopher: 01:18:39

No. No. No. No. No.

Christopher: 01:18:40

No. No. No. No. No.

Christopher: 01:18:40

No. No. No. No. No.

Christopher: 01:18:40

No. No. No. No. No.

Christopher: 01:18:40

No. No. No. No. No.

Christopher: 01:18:40

No.

Whitney: 01:18:48

No She works. I love it.

Christian: 01:18:52

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That that that that broken soundboard. Yeah.

Christopher: 01:18:56

Yeah. She goes to work. Yeah.

Whitney: 01:18:57

She calls it going to work.

Christian: 01:18:58

But I mean,

Christopher: 01:18:59

it and to, you know, to

Christian: 01:19:00

your point, like the vulnerability to go, this is what was happening and this is where I would like to go. But also not beating yourself up in the beginning, right, of going, oh, god. I was so terrible. I was the worst dad. Like you say, you're like, I was not a bad dad, but I wanted to do more.

Christian: 01:19:15

Right?

Christopher: 01:19:16

Right.

Christian: 01:19:16

And, like, giving yourself past self grace because the past self was doing the best it could

Christopher: 01:19:21

Right.

Christian: 01:19:21

In a time.

Christopher: 01:19:22

You know?

Christian: 01:19:23

But, like, right now, this self, I would like for this self to do more. I would like for this self to show up this way. I would like for this self to, you know, be more present, be more vulnerable, be more whatever, be more involved.

Christopher: 01:19:36

Be more involved, really, especially when it comes to religious stuff because I feel like Whew.

Whitney: 01:19:41

If the

Christopher: 01:19:42

state of Texas is talking about this curriculum, they're gonna be talking about it in the next year. Yeah. No. And and I'm I'm glad to give get a head start so that they won't be giving her no bullshit.

Christian: 01:19:52

I mean, they will, but you just gotta prepare.

Whitney: 01:19:53

Yeah. Prepare to do your your own

Christian: 01:19:55

they was they still they give me no bullshit now.

Christopher: 01:19:57

They're gonna give that bullshit now.

Whitney: 01:19:58

And Can I pause you? Sorry.

Christian: 01:20:00

Because as

Whitney: 01:20:01

you were I'm sorry. No. You're good. As you were talking about, like, the, you know, the grace, the self compassion

Christian: 01:20:08

Yeah. That you

Whitney: 01:20:08

have to offer yourself, I just wanna reflect that back to you. Uh-oh. Because I will say, as you were like, I you almost had me in tears when you were describing, like, the emotional experience behind, like, working through your sexual repression. Oh, yeah. How, like, you just feel so, like, this is stupid.

Whitney: 01:20:23

It's so stupid. And it's, like, it's not stupid. Like, you were programmed

Christian: 01:20:29

That was.

Whitney: 01:20:30

On purpose. Like, that version of you was in compliance with what you were told was right. Mhmm. Right? And now you have new information.

Whitney: 01:20:40

You're just updating your OS, and that takes some time. Right? And then you gotta restart the system. How many new bugs? Sometimes there's bugs.

Whitney: 01:20:48

And, like, that's okay. But, like, the compassion that you are highlighting for Chris, I would love for you to apply to yourself. Because, like, when I say that hurt me to hear you talk, like, you were one of the smartest people I know. Right?

Christian: 01:21:02

Which is I hate it so much.

Whitney: 01:21:04

Well, but, like, it's not an indictment on your intelligence. Right. This was the experience that someone crafted for you. So the same way y'all are crafting a world for your daughter

Christian: 01:21:12

Yeah.

Whitney: 01:21:13

Right? Someone crafted a world for you to the best of their ability.

Christopher: 01:21:16

Right. And and that's and that's why I even shared about my ability to to want to be grateful for what I've been through because in some ways, you know, you you have to integrate yourself back into yourself. Absolutely. And you can't fault yourself. Yeah.

Christopher: 01:21:30

I'm such an idiot back then. It's like, no. Oh. I did the best with what I knew at the time. And now I know more.

Christopher: 01:21:37

And and while, yeah, I can admit what happened back then or what didn't happen, And then I can move forward with that, but I have to appreciate and accept Yeah. That who I was was valid and was right then Yeah. For especially especially according to what I knew.

Whitney: 01:21:53

Well, and you don't get to where you're going without that part of the journey. Right. And I think that that's always been my thing. Right? Like, as we were talking about, like, you need all of this to provide the context for you to really understand your foundation.

Whitney: 01:22:03

Right? Yeah. And, like, that's why integration is so important. That's why we don't kill our old versions of ourselves or, like, kill our shadows and all of that because it's important to the grand scheme of our story, right, and how we come to understand our road, our existence, right, and how we show up. And I'm a tell you this as somebody who is a little bit further along down this particular road, is that, like, I'm not gonna trade her.

Whitney: 01:22:30

Mhmm. I'm now do I wish it hadn't happened that way? Yes. Right?

Christian: 01:22:36

Yeah.

Whitney: 01:22:36

But, like, I need her to be me.

Christopher: 01:22:40

Right.

Whitney: 01:22:40

Yeah. You know? Like, I need her to be me. And so, like, even in there even if there are moments where, like because I I think I exude a different energy than, like, is sometimes inside. Right?

Whitney: 01:22:52

And so in the moments where it's like, oh, shit. Right? Then I have to remember, oh, no, bitch. You worked for this.

Christian: 01:22:58

Yeah. Right. You

Whitney: 01:22:59

uh-uh. You worked for this moment. Yeah. Right here. Come back here.

Whitney: 01:23:03

That doesn't happen without

Christopher: 01:23:05

her.

Christian: 01:23:05

Mhmm. Yeah.

Whitney: 01:23:06

Right? And so just like and I I offer this to y'all as well listening. Like, self compassion is when we talk about being vulnerable with ourselves, self compassion is a major component of that because we can't like, we we cannot

Christopher: 01:23:23

Right.

Whitney: 01:23:23

Show up for ourselves if we are not gonna be gracious and compassionate to our own selves.

Christopher: 01:23:28

Right.

Whitney: 01:23:29

Right? And if you can't do that to your own self, like and and so many especially as women, we can do that to people outside all day. Right. Right?

Christopher: 01:23:35

All

Whitney: 01:23:35

day. Exactly. And we'll offer things that we will

Christopher: 01:23:37

never offer to ourselves. Mhmm. And and I will say this to you. What you went through and, you know, we call it repression and and here

Whitney: 01:23:45

and now It's

Christopher: 01:23:46

really suppression. It's suppression. Yeah. But for me, I don't know if it's healthy or not to think of it that way, but it it does speak to me to a level of internal willpower you have in your mind.

Whitney: 01:23:58

Mhmm.

Christopher: 01:23:59

That I can only admire. I can only admire it.

Christian: 01:24:02

I have some I have some aggressive narratives.

Christopher: 01:24:04

Yeah. Yeah. I

Whitney: 01:24:05

love the way you said that. I have some aggressive narrative, girl, same in like There

Christopher: 01:24:09

you go. So yeah. So, like, for me, like, around that sex, it was it would I just gave myself grief about it. I was like, I don't I don't have enough to stop it and make it I was like, I I can't make it disgusting. I you know, I must fuck.

Christopher: 01:24:22

I just gotta find a better way to do it. Yeah. And it was a kinda that kind

Whitney: 01:24:25

of thing.

Christopher: 01:24:26

But I think because of my maleness and because I'm a man, I didn't get the conditioning that you got.

Christian: 01:24:32

Not the shame around it.

Christopher: 01:24:33

I didn't get the shame around it. Not of course, I got the the guilt from God and all of that stuff. But it was it was not the the shame and not the the pay you know, the things that we tell women to just keep them alive. I didn't

Whitney: 01:24:45

get all Misogyny?

Christian: 01:24:47

Misogyny. Yep.

Christopher: 01:24:48

Yep. That sounds like a good one. Misogynoir. No.

Christian: 01:24:51

That's what?

Christopher: 01:24:52

Okay. Yeah. I didn't I didn't get all of that. But I do wanna say, what you did to try to be in compliance, it speaks to a level of brainpower that you have.

Christian: 01:25:03

I used up so much energy.

Christopher: 01:25:04

That, yeah, that energy.

Christian: 01:25:06

So much energy.

Christopher: 01:25:07

You did. Yeah. And and I do envy it on on some level as a person who sometimes feels that he or that I am, at times, could be can seem to be unregulated on discipline and could use some of that won't power as it were. You know, with some things you will do. Some some sometimes it's just the power that won't be Listen.

Whitney: 01:25:24

Let me tell you about ADHD and impulsivity. Yeah. It's just our the way our breather wired.

Christopher: 01:25:29

So yeah. It is.

Whitney: 01:25:31

Take your meds and get over it. Thank you.

Christopher: 01:25:33

Right.

Whitney: 01:25:35

Or don't and get over it. I don't I I I I hear free range.

Christopher: 01:25:38

Alright. Right. I I just wanna appreciate this, like, I'm

Christian: 01:25:41

not I'm

Whitney: 01:25:41

not No. Don't let me stop you

Christopher: 01:25:42

from chasing

Whitney: 01:25:43

your wife.

Christopher: 01:25:43

But I do wanna appreciate this is a superpower that you have.

Christian: 01:25:46

Yeah. It is so interesting.

Christopher: 01:25:47

Different kind.

Whitney: 01:25:48

So this

Christopher: 01:25:48

is You just gotta use it a different way now.

Christian: 01:25:50

I do. Mhmm. So this is a sidebar. The I am the only person in this room who's not ADHD.

Whitney: 01:25:56

Yeah.

Christian: 01:25:57

And I That's why she keeps us together. I try. But I'd be going along for the rest of the time because it'd be fun.

Whitney: 01:26:02

I mean, because you're a little spicy, which is weird.

Christian: 01:26:04

Which is which is what I was about to say. I have not been diagnosed with anything. However, there is there are some tendencies that I have that are definitely giving off the the the the autistic spectrum variety.

Whitney: 01:26:17

Mhmm.

Christian: 01:26:18

And so when you were saying that, I was like, yes. I fixate. Yep. That's what the

Whitney: 01:26:23

heck. Yeah.

Christian: 01:26:26

My ability to fixate and the fact that I read I'm not gonna tell you how many romance books I read last year, but it was

Whitney: 01:26:32

Oh my god. It's so many.

Christian: 01:26:34

I fixated on trying to fix my problem in a very specific way, and one of them was reading romance books. And I I read a lot of So much. I read a lot of them because I was like, it I was unable to be vulnerable with myself. I was having a hard time being vulnerable with Chris, but I could allow a version of vulnerability when I was in an imaginary world.

Whitney: 01:26:58

Mhmm.

Christian: 01:26:59

And so the books were, like, my gateway to trying to be more vulnerable with myself and with Chris as well as therapy. I mean, I've been a couple of times. And this is number three, I think.

Christopher: 01:27:10

Wonderful.

Christian: 01:27:11

Anyway, I can't I'll keep track. But, yeah, like, the the Mhmm. For me, having being able to, like, voyeur vulnerability Mhmm. For lack of a better term

Christopher: 01:27:23

Right.

Christian: 01:27:24

Gave me a little bit of permission to be more vulnerable in my own reality. Yeah. Which I didn't think about it that way at the time, but as we're talking about it, it's like that was one of the stepping stones for me is seeing, oh, they can be vulnerable. It's not necessarily bad. It's not necessarily, like, gonna lead to your your final demise and destruction and all this other stuff.

Christian: 01:27:46

Right? And so that that that's those baby steps of finding ways that I could cosplay vulnerability until I could be vulnerable. Like, yeah. This stuff don't change overnight. Right?

Whitney: 01:28:00

Right. You're not

Christian: 01:28:00

you're not immediately gonna go from, like, not being able to talk about anything to just, like, pouring your heart out to somebody. Mhmm. But, like, if you can find a baby step Yeah. Any kind of baby step does not go harm other people. Well, it's it's So how

Christopher: 01:28:13

else you gotta use will make sense to you?

Whitney: 01:28:15

Yes. In the moment.

Christopher: 01:28:15

You're able to use what is the appropriate tools.

Christian: 01:28:18

Yeah. Or a more functional one.

Christopher: 01:28:20

More functional one.

Whitney: 01:28:21

Well, and it helps to have, like what's the room looking for? Like representation in a way? Like, it helps to see it in action, especially if it's not something you've seen modeled. Like, it's really hard to create from a blank model space. So important.

Whitney: 01:28:34

Are important. Right? Like, in in hearing about how other people have framed their worlds and seen their worlds, fiction, nonfiction, romance, and Whatever.

Christian: 01:28:40

All of it.

Whitney: 01:28:41

Like, books are important for this. But it could be whatever for you. And so just would love to encourage you all listening to, like, take inventory Mhmm. Of how vulnerable you are with yourself, how that impacts how you show up in community, how it impacts how you show up in relationship.

Christopher: 01:28:58

Right.

Whitney: 01:28:58

Right? With significant others or even, like, your close friends and family. Right? And give us some feedback on that. We'd love to love to hear I mean, you ain't gotta, like, you listen.

Whitney: 01:29:07

It's a public space. And remember we talked about you get to be selective with how vulnerable you are in spaces. So you don't have come in the comments right now your whole situation. But if you're not comfortable with that,

Christian: 01:29:17

I would Whatever you're

Christopher: 01:29:18

comfortable sharing.

Whitney: 01:29:18

Whatever you're comfortable sharing, and we're happy to engage you. We actually do respond. We We do. Listen, I'll I won't respond to, like, ad posts, but I will respond to your comment.

Christian: 01:29:27

Yeah. You comment you comment on a clip or or one of our posts on Instagram or Facebook. We got you. You comment on Spotify, insta, not Instagram. What's the other one?

Christian: 01:29:37

Apple Music, YouTube. We got you.

Whitney: 01:29:39

We got you. We gonna say something back. It's gonna be one of us. Now if you're commenting on the post, it's probably gonna be Chris.

Christian: 01:29:46

It's probably it might it might be me.

Whitney: 01:29:47

It might be you. It might be Christian. It won't ever be Whitney.

Christopher: 01:29:50

It won't ever be Whitney.

Whitney: 01:29:51

That's not how she likes

Christian: 01:29:52

to be. Unless unless I crowdsource a response or something.

Christopher: 01:29:54

Yes. Right.

Whitney: 01:29:55

Or unless I am told what

Christopher: 01:29:56

you respond to. Or it will be chat GBT depending on the energy that's on it.

Whitney: 01:30:00

Yeah. If you come in correct talking to nobody but Shatisha.

Christian: 01:30:04

If you come with froggy energy, you gonna get Shat.

Christopher: 01:30:07

You gonna

Christian: 01:30:07

get Shat. Okay.

Whitney: 01:30:08

Loving it.

Christopher: 01:30:09

Yes. That's really you would be You

Christian: 01:30:10

gonna get Shat.

Christopher: 01:30:11

Representative of our thoughts, but not our energy behind it.

Whitney: 01:30:13

That part. You're not getting anything.

Christopher: 01:30:14

We got realized to deal with, and we're not forgetting.

Christian: 01:30:16

A little bit. Dismissed.

Whitney: 01:30:17

Yeah. But also, y'all going back and forth. The email is definitely in the in the outro, but, like, y'all feel free to email us things.

Christian: 01:30:24

Like, let

Whitney: 01:30:24

us know. So I know we're nearing the end of this episode. And before we, like, hop out of here, I just wanna give a big thank you to our season one listeners. Yay. First of all, y'all held us down.

Whitney: 01:30:36

Y'all gave us some valuable feedback, encouragement to keep going, and we just say thank you for listening. If you love what you're hearing, y'all, please like, share, subscribe, share.

Christian: 01:30:46

Share. Share.

Whitney: 01:30:47

Share. So some of y'all I know some

Christopher: 01:30:48

of y'all share.

Whitney: 01:30:50

We have an Instagram. It's all it's all gonna be in the outro. So please y'all help get the word out. And we just we thank you so much already. And at some point, we might get a little, you know, subscription service going up because we'd be out here while in in our in eclipse that don't make it into the podcast.

Christian: 01:31:06

If you wanna hear some of that shit

Whitney: 01:31:07

If you wanna hear it, let us know. There's a I warn you. There's a lot of singing.

Christian: 01:31:11

There's so much singers singing.

Christopher: 01:31:13

Want to hear the outrageous shit, they'll be going on.

Christian: 01:31:17

Yeah. Outside of Outside of

Whitney: 01:31:18

and sometimes, like

Christopher: 01:31:19

And sometimes, it's more thoughtful, provocative content.

Whitney: 01:31:21

Yeah. Sometimes. And sometimes, we'd be shooting shit. Right. Sometimes, I say the most outlandish things.

Whitney: 01:31:26

I have no idea that Christopher has pressed record.

Christian: 01:31:28

A lot of times, we'd be shooting the shit. A lot.

Whitney: 01:31:30

Chris is the only person that ever really knows when it starts. Christian usually catches a second because she's closer to the board. I'm just out here free balling. And I just be saying shit. Free balling.

Christopher: 01:31:42

Free balling.

Christian: 01:31:43

And then I'm Free balling. Oh, shit.

Whitney: 01:31:45

For watching. Thank you for listening so much. Like I said, do all the things, and we hope you come back in two weeks for the next episode.

Christopher: 01:31:54

For the next episode. Bye. See you.

Whitney: 01:31:59

What song is this? Oh, like, okay.

Christian: 01:32:00

Next episode.

Whitney: 01:32:06

Meow meow meow meow.

Christopher: 01:32:08

Alright.

Christian: 01:32:09

I meow.

Whitney: 01:32:13

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Upward Project podcast. We hope you found fresh perspective and continue to make space for real growth. If you enjoy today's conversation, be sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcast. You can follow us on social media at the Uproot Project Podcast on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, or visit us at wwwtheuprootpodcast.com for more content. To contact us, feel free to drop us a line at hello@theuprootpodcast.com.

Whitney: 01:32:46

Until next time. Keep living fully, learning openly, and loving deeply. We'll see you soon.